Author Topic: loads for jug choke  (Read 851 times)

Offline RichG

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loads for jug choke
« on: March 31, 2024, 04:29:47 AM »
I've been trying to work up a load for a 12 ga jug chocked trade gun. By far the best patterns are a square load (90 gr 1f, 1-1/4ozshot) and over shot wads on powder and shot. This is the same technique that V.M. Starr used. Go figure.
I've tried cork wads ,felt wads, sky chief and paper cartridges, paper shot cups. I think the wads and paper cartridges interfere with the shot flowing through the choke. Anyone have  different results?

Offline Harleysboss

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Re: loads for jug choke
« Reply #1 on: March 31, 2024, 08:10:06 PM »
I used a similar load in my 12ga. jug choked SB. I favored 75 grains of FFFG and 1 1/4 oz #6 copper plated. The card stack was the same as yours. Last year I tried a recommended load using corn meal. I had good results with 75 grains FFFG followed by a 12ga wool wad followed by 70 grains vol of plain corn meal  1 1/4 oz #6  topped by a shot card.

Offline Hungry Horse

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Re: loads for jug choke
« Reply #2 on: April 01, 2024, 07:51:45 AM »
 Iíve always found 3F, and often even 2F in a large bore shot loads to be too aggressive. This is especially true with smaller shot, or alloys that are markedly lighter than lead.

Hungry Horse

Offline Brokennock

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Re: loads for jug choke
« Reply #3 on: April 01, 2024, 03:40:49 PM »
I've been trying to work up a load for a 12 ga jug chocked trade gun. By far the best patterns are a square load (90 gr 1f, 1-1/4ozshot) and over shot wads on powder and shot. This is the same technique that V.M. Starr used. Go figure.
I've tried cork wads ,felt wads, sky chief and paper cartridges, paper shot cups. I think the wads and paper cartridges interfere with the shot flowing through the choke. Anyone have  different results?

Having experimented a lot with the Skychief load and read a lot on it, I have found that any change, no matter how small it may seem, from Skychief's original instructions will have a negative effect on the improvement it usually delivers. So make sure that when trying it you follow it closely... As far as a jug choke and that load is concerned, there are a few people on "that other forum," that have had good results using it through a jug choke. One gentleman had a barrel jug choked and saw little to no improvement in pattern. He tried the Skychief load through it and saw tremendous gain.

I can see how a paper shot cup, depending in how it is formed, would not improve patterns through a jug choke, and probably would even negate the choke. If the cup doesn't allow the shot column to expand into the jug, then compress again at the forward end, the jug won't work.

On average I find I get better patterns regardless of loading method and components, using a powder measure 10 grains greater than the one I loaded powder with.... If I load 60 grains powder,I use my 70 grain measure for shot (squirrels and pheasants) if I use my 70 grian measure for powder I use my 80 or 85 grain measure for shot (turkeys and depending on which gun I'm loading). These are 20 gauge loads, but I'm sure you get the idea.

Offline axelp

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Re: loads for jug choke
« Reply #4 on: April 01, 2024, 05:01:40 PM »
The load I have had good results from is 65 or 70 g of 2f, a cardboard wad, and a 90 gr measure of shot-- then a  thin over shot card. I have yet to try the inverse but keep hearing about it. I need to give it a go. I found that using 3f powder did not help my patterns-- maybe it pushes too hard and give me a donut pattern?.  I suspect 1F powder might even give me better results but I have not tried that yet either. When I try 1F I will probably increase the powder charge to 75-80gr. This is in a .62 cal fowler.

I have tried paper shot cups too and they work fine, but not a significant enough advantage to commit to that extra step.

I have regularly taken squirrels and one turkey and an armful of pheasant with this load. (As well as a stack or two of clays over the years).

OOPS-- no jug choke in my fowlers, so there's that.

K
Galations 2:20

Offline Daryl

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Re: loads for jug choke
« Reply #5 on: April 01, 2024, 07:19:54 PM »
Powder measures, filled with shot.
50gr. = 3/4oz.
60gr. = 7/8oz.
70gr. = 1.0oz
80gr. = 1 1/8oz
90gr. = 1 1/4oz
100gr.=1 3/8oz
110gr.=1 1/2oz
120gr.=1 5/8oz

Drams equivelent:
1 dram = 27.3gr. weight.
thus:
2 1/2 = 68gr. (68.25 actual)
2 3/4 = 75gr. (75.1gr, actual)
3 === 82gr. (81.9gr. actual)
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V

Offline RichG

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Re: loads for jug choke
« Reply #6 on: April 02, 2024, 05:07:53 AM »
Also tried 1.5 and 2f, neither pattern as good as 1f. Also 85 gr 1f and 1-1/4oz shot. No improvement. 

Offline Daryl

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Re: loads for jug choke
« Reply #7 on: April 03, 2024, 09:31:51 AM »
I shoot 75gr. 1F and 1 1/4oz in my 1880 12 bore SxS - no chokes.
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V

Offline JBJ

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Re: loads for jug choke
« Reply #8 on: April 03, 2024, 03:42:36 PM »
While I have yet to try the load, the use of corn "dust" (corn meal?) by "capandball" as the wad between powder and shot seems to give outstanding patterns (65 to 70+) in original cyclinder bore barrels. He goes through the procedure in his YouTube video
It might produce very tight patterns through as jug choke - or not. However, the percentage patterns he obtained in a cyclinder bore gun are in the improved modified to full choke range - impressive IMHO.

J.B.

Offline Daryl

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Re: loads for jug choke
« Reply #9 on: April 03, 2024, 07:36:51 PM »
Gotta love crisp locks. What a beautiful shotgun!
Amazing results. Wonder what the velocity came out at??
« Last Edit: April 03, 2024, 07:52:24 PM by Daryl »
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V

Offline danny

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Re: loads for jug choke
« Reply #10 on: April 03, 2024, 07:52:39 PM »
I have been using cream of wheat cereal rather than cornmeal. Best patterns I have came up with. Cornmeal was good but when hunting I put the cream of wheat inside a pistol flask in my bag. Cornmeal wont flow very well. I use the same amount by volume as powder. I put the dry cereal directly on the powder. No over powder card. A 1/8 thick overshot cork card. In my double barrel the second load has not came loose after the first shot. Shooting over my chroney there is no loss in velocity omitting the over powder card. Patterns were the same also.

Offline Daryl

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Re: loads for jug choke
« Reply #11 on: April 03, 2024, 07:57:13 PM »
Well, going to have to do some more experimenting, I see. LOL - It never ends when striving for improvement.
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V

Offline RichG

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Re: loads for jug choke
« Reply #12 on: April 04, 2024, 03:18:40 AM »
looks like it's back to the range! 70% pattern out of a cylinder bore is impressive.

Offline Daryl

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Re: loads for jug choke
« Reply #13 on: April 05, 2024, 01:52:20 AM »
For a 10 bore, that was a VERY light charge of powder and shot. Without overshot wad, I cannot see how it would develop enough
velocity for hunting. I guess we'll just have to check it out.
A soup can penetration test will have to be carried out or a chronograph with protective plate used.
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V

Offline Pukka Bundook

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Re: loads for jug choke
« Reply #14 on: April 07, 2024, 05:08:14 PM »
Daryl,
A voice in the wilderness and all that, but I keep repeating the old stand by loads used back home for all shooting including geese on the marshes, (lot different to decoying)
One dram to a half ounce of shot.
So three drams and an ounce and a half of shot.

The latter is a load for geese in a ten bore.
About 80 grains and an ounce and a half.

Most patterns are buggered by too much powder.

Richard.

Offline Daryl

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Re: loads for jug choke
« Reply #15 on: April 07, 2024, 08:10:08 PM »
Yes, aware of that Richard. Thanks for the reminder, though.
I know of fellows here who use 1 5/8oz shot in 20 bores with 80 or more gr. of powder.
My own 20 shoots mod. patterns (60-65%) with 3 drams and 1 1/8oz. shot, but it does have a very slight choke of .005".
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V

Offline Pukka Bundook

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Re: loads for jug choke
« Reply #16 on: April 08, 2024, 03:51:25 PM »
Good morning Daryl,
Yes indeed, in the old days a Lot heavier shot charge was often used than today.
I know Hawker tells us that for a 14 -23 bore, an ounce and a half of shot, and in this he was also recommending a square load....and this charge varied by the shoulder.
I wasn't finding any fault with what you said, just that today we often hear of more powder being used in relation to shot, and this blows patterns.

My little old Lofley double 20 passed the bean tin test at 40 yards with English no 4, (about 5's here) and always patterned well at that range with 2 drams and an ounce and a quarter.

The list of charges up the page was for breechloaders.
The lightest setting I have ever seen on a shot flask is an ounce, then an ounce and a quarter. this size is also the most common, followed by 1 1/4 and 1 1/2 ounces.
All the best my friend,
Richard.

Offline JBJ

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Re: loads for jug choke
« Reply #17 on: April 08, 2024, 04:24:00 PM »
Reading the exchange of comments concerning amount of powder vs lead, I am reminded of an old jingle, purportedly from from the UK, that went something like "Little powder, more lead, shoots far and kills dead." It was quoted by the author of an article, who as I recall was developing 12 bore loads of 1.5 ounces of shot that were slow (1050+/- fps) by todays standards (pressures were also quite low). Having followed the articles advice, I can attest to the fact that the loads patterened superbly and were decidely lethal. The focus today with non-lead loads seems to be pushing as much shot as possible as fast as possible. This concept seems to have spilled over for some folks when it comes to shooting ml shotguns as well. However, for me personally, it is not something that I care to do out of my little 18 bore. I know my shoulder appreciates my choice! Each to his/her own  :)

J.B.

Offline rudyc

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Re: loads for jug choke
« Reply #18 on: April 08, 2024, 06:44:11 PM »
I have been using cream of wheat cereal rather than cornmeal. Best patterns I have came up with. Cornmeal was good but when hunting I put the cream of wheat inside a pistol flask in my bag. Cornmeal wont flow very well. I use the same amount by volume as powder. I put the dry cereal directly on the powder. No over powder card. A 1/8 thick overshot cork card. In my double barrel the second load has not came loose after the first shot. Shooting over my chroney there is no loss in velocity omitting the over powder card. Patterns were the same also.

Nothing between the cereal and the shot??
"It's a good day for something"

Offline Daryl

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Re: loads for jug choke
« Reply #19 on: April 08, 2024, 10:49:12 PM »
I have been using cream of wheat cereal rather than cornmeal. Best patterns I have came up with. Cornmeal was good but when hunting I put the cream of wheat inside a pistol flask in my bag. Cornmeal wont flow very well. I use the same amount by volume as powder. I put the dry cereal directly on the powder. No over powder card. A 1/8 thick overshot cork card. In my double barrel the second load has not came loose after the first shot. Shooting over my chroney there is no loss in velocity omitting the over powder card. Patterns were the same also.

Danny, would you tell us the load you use as well as the velocity, please?
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V

Offline axelp

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Re: loads for jug choke
« Reply #20 on: April 09, 2024, 05:58:53 PM »
I think it's very thoughtful to think of feeding the turkey at the same time you are harvesting it. LOL. K
Galations 2:20