Author Topic: slow ignition  (Read 16913 times)

jim m

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slow ignition
« on: August 19, 2008, 02:17:37 AM »

ignition just a tad slow, click then boom. chambers late ketland lock, 1/4 white lightnin touch hole liner. bottom of hole is even with top of pan and dead center. any suggestions. works best with a very small amount of powder in pan
« Last Edit: August 19, 2008, 02:20:23 AM by jim m »

Offline Ken G

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Re: slow ignition
« Reply #1 on: August 19, 2008, 02:26:21 AM »
Jim, What's the barrel size?  What powder are you using to prime?
Cheers,
ken
Failure only comes when you stop trying.

Daryl

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Re: slow ignition
« Reply #2 on: August 19, 2008, 02:29:12 AM »
Appears to be the same settup as mine, except for the lock.  Mine has very fast ignition, which Taylor remarks about, each time we're out and he shoots only Chambers locks pretty much now. They are fast, but this Dickert L&R is a wee bit faster.
: If the Dickert will fit the period and lock mortice, it might be worth a try. But then, maybe I just lucked out. The geometry of this lock of mine just seems to work well.

jim m

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Re: slow ignition
« Reply #3 on: August 19, 2008, 02:34:27 AM »
7/8 x .45 cal. liner is drilled out to 5/64 and edge of liner is 1/64" ahead of breech plug. face of breech plug is also highly polished. 3f for main charge and 4f in the pan
« Last Edit: August 19, 2008, 02:44:10 AM by jim m »

northmn

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Re: slow ignition
« Reply #4 on: August 19, 2008, 01:20:57 PM »
Out of curiosity, why did you drill out the line to 5/64?  Its possible with 3f that you may be getting a self priming action similar to overpriming with a fuse effect.  Many folks counter sink the touch hole a little but don't increase the size.  Saw a 45 one time loaded very light and vent the whole charge out the touch hole.  That touch hole was about 3/32.  I got to put a new vent in that rifle for the individual.

DP

Daryl

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Re: slow ignition
« Reply #5 on: August 19, 2008, 01:52:33 PM »
I run a .070" vent and get good velocity with that size per grain of powder, along with excellent ignition.  I also use 4F in the pan.

Offline Larry Pletcher

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Re: slow ignition
« Reply #6 on: August 19, 2008, 02:01:48 PM »
Based on my chance to time vent holes and vent locations:
1. Vent location is fine.
2.Vent hole is plenty big.  I think Optimum is closer to .070 - (no. 52 bit??); you might be a tad big.

I'd try the following:
1. Cone the exterior with a countersink. Not much - I like to do it very slowly with a drill or by hand.
2. Prime as close to the vent as possible - not banked away.  (Banked away was 15% slower in the tests I did.  The closer the better.)
3. Try Swiss Null B - In my tests with an L&R pan, .5 gr was faster than 1 grain.

I know that no. 2 above sounds like heresy, but it is based on repeatable testing proceedures.  If you want to see the test results try the following, especially parts 4-6:

http://www.blackpowdermag.com/featured-articles/pan-vent-experiments.php
Regards,
Pletch
blackpowdermag@gmail.com

He is no fool who gives up what he cannot keep to gain what can never be taken away.

Kayla Mueller - I didn't come here of my own accord, and I can't leave that way.  Whoever brought me here, will have to take me home.

Daryl

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Re: slow ignition
« Reply #7 on: August 19, 2008, 02:21:32 PM »
I was hoping you would respond, Larry.  As to coning on the outside, the White Lightening vents are quite thin walled between the inside cone and the outside flat. of course, this depends on how much is filed off to make it flush, which is directly effected by how deeply one countersinks the vent in the barrel.  When m rifle is loaded, I can see powder in the vent's inside cone, from the outside.  If I was to cone the outsdie, it woudl be way too thin and burn out prematurely.

Offline Ken G

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Re: slow ignition
« Reply #8 on: August 19, 2008, 02:28:52 PM »


 .070" is a #50 drill bit size
Failure only comes when you stop trying.

northmn

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Re: slow ignition
« Reply #9 on: August 19, 2008, 04:19:20 PM »
One needs to basically make sure there are no ridges from drilling or whatever on the outside.  5/64 is .781.  Some of the old catalogs like Dixie recommends 3/32 but as a use without an insert.  You can drill them out if you want, but with 3f in a 45, I think the 1/16 works fine.  I have used other vents and counter sunk them to channel the flash ( and have also counter sunk the interior that goes into the barrel). Otherwise I think Larry is correct in that the positioning of the powder in the pan would be the only other alternative.  One thing I used to do was to put the pick inside the vent and leave it when I poured the powder to make sure everything is clear. 

DP

Offline Randy Hedden

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Re: slow ignition
« Reply #10 on: August 19, 2008, 06:39:58 PM »
David,

WOW!! .781 would indeed be a large touch hole. I think you meant .0781". I always drill my vent hole out to .070". I have been doing this for years with no problems at all.

Randy Hedden

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northmn

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Re: slow ignition
« Reply #11 on: August 19, 2008, 07:05:05 PM »
Screwed up didn't I.  .0781 according to charts.  Probably wouldn't matter all that much whether .0625 or .07.

DP

ironwolf

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Re: slow ignition
« Reply #12 on: August 19, 2008, 07:43:49 PM »
  Indeed, 5/64th is way too big.  The stock white lightnin' is .060 I believe.  I've drilled them out to .067 as well as .070 with good results.

  KW

J.D.

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Re: slow ignition
« Reply #13 on: August 19, 2008, 07:49:29 PM »
Screwed up didn't I.  .0781 according to charts.  Probably wouldn't matter all that much whether .0625 or .07.

DP

 If I calculated the areas of a .0625 touch hole as opposed to a .070 touch hole correctly, and I probably didn't, the larger TH has a 78% larger area than the smaller. IMHO, that is significant increase in area.

I am sure one of the mathematicians on the board will correct my calculations.   ???

Offline Larry Pletcher

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Re: slow ignition
« Reply #14 on: August 19, 2008, 08:12:39 PM »
Number 52 stuck in my mind because that was the last one I did. Here are three that I would begin with:
52-----0.064
51-----0.067
50-----0.070

When asked I usually suggest starting one numbered bit size bigger than 1/16".  I feel going bigger than a number 50 won't help.  If one of these won't light your fire then there is something else wrong.
Regards,
Pletch
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Kayla Mueller - I didn't come here of my own accord, and I can't leave that way.  Whoever brought me here, will have to take me home.

Pratt

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Re: slow ignition
« Reply #15 on: August 20, 2008, 02:13:41 AM »
Jim,

 With a flint in the jaws dry fire the gun a bunch of times paying attention to what you see and hear happening, the "click" you describe before the "boom" sometimes means something is slowing the lock down, can be a weak set trigger also if you are using those. Your problem may be happening before the prime even ignites.
  If that's not the case, you can try watching as somebody else fires the gun, may make it easier to see how it acts after the priming powder is lit
   Doesn't look like it from your picture, but  make sure that your frizzen isn't hitting the barrel or binding anywhere, even a little will slow you down.

jim m

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Re: slow ignition
« Reply #16 on: August 20, 2008, 02:54:25 AM »
thanks a million for all the replies. spent the day at the range today and this is what I learned. this lock just does not like very much prime in the pan!! if it looks like there isn't enough in the pan, then it is just right. also, today anyway, picking the vent before each shot helped. was able to get the sight dialed in and things are much better. also if the vent hole size turns out to be a problem, I have another insert and will start over. again thanks for the advice.

swordmanjohn

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Re: slow ignition
« Reply #17 on: August 20, 2008, 11:39:28 AM »
Ive always only used percussion ML's until now. What grade powder do flinters use?    2f,3f ? and has anyone ever put say 5 grains of 4f powder first in the muzzle then fill the rest with 2f or 3 ff  so that ignition time would improve?

swordmanjohn

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Re: slow ignition
« Reply #18 on: August 20, 2008, 11:53:48 AM »
Heres something I made (video) last night when I was bored  ( cut and paste)  .     http://tinypic.com/player.php?v=9au4pj&s=4

Candle Snuffer

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Re: slow ignition
« Reply #19 on: August 20, 2008, 04:35:31 PM »
Ive always only used percussion ML's until now. What grade powder do flinters use?    2f,3f ? and has anyone ever put say 5 grains of 4f powder first in the muzzle then fill the rest with 2f or 3 ff  so that ignition time would improve?

Depends on what a person likes to shoot from their flintlock.  I've used both
2f and 3f all the way down to .45 caliber and up to .54 caliber (as that's the largest caliber I own), and have had no problem with either.  I've even tested priming with 2f with a 2f load.  It works, though one can tell it boarders on slower ignition.

There really is no reason to duplex load with 4f in my opinion.  On a humid day one might find that 4f becoming soupy in the breech packed very tightly, causing a missfire or hangfire.  I personally don't see this as gaining anything.

What I have found that works for me is that on humid days I prime with 3f, and on very low humid days I like to use the 4f as prime.  Again it becomes a matter of choice in which powder you like to use as a main charge.

I might make one quick addition here...  I'm not sure 5 grains of 4f under your main charge would even amount to anything of value depending on the location of your vent hole?
« Last Edit: August 20, 2008, 04:46:19 PM by Candle Snuffer »

Daryl

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Re: slow ignition
« Reply #20 on: August 20, 2008, 06:32:11 PM »
I'm with Candle Snuffer on adding anything to the main charge.  I find 3F and 2F both ignite at the same rate in the barrel.  I always use 4F for priming. We don't get very high humidity here very often and even when we do, with a water filled pan after loading, wiping it out with a cloth and priming with 4F results in a  fboom - normal, fast ignition.

Offline Darkhorse

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Re: slow ignition
« Reply #21 on: September 05, 2008, 07:29:32 PM »
As for coning the outside of a White Lightning it depends on how deep the intitial countersink was when first installed. The deeper the CS the more distance between the face and the internal cone.
Since the initial CS is mostly guesswork, some rifles really need an outside CS, some don't. Personally I treat all mine to the CS. But sometimes you can hardly see it.
American horses of Arabian descent.

Offline Roger Fisher

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Re: slow ignition
« Reply #22 on: September 05, 2008, 09:08:05 PM »
thanks a million for all the replies. spent the day at the range today and this is what I learned. this lock just does not like very much prime in the pan!! if it looks like there isn't enough in the pan, then it is just right. also, today anyway, picking the vent before each shot helped. was able to get the sight dialed in and things are much better. also if the vent hole size turns out to be a problem, I have another insert and will start over. again thanks for the advice.
Just a heads up on using the pick.....Be careful when so doing, in particular when you bend the pick to go round the flash guard (if you use one) As that pick gets rough and pitted she will wear the vent larger fairly soon then you have more headaches..

Don't ask me how I know this ::)

Harnic

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Re: slow ignition
« Reply #23 on: September 05, 2008, 09:17:32 PM »
I often see reference to "picking" the vent here.  I've always found mine to be self cleaning.  I also never wipe the pan or the flint edge as I have seen some shooters do.  The only time I get misfires or hang fires is if I let the flint get dull.

Daryl

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Re: slow ignition
« Reply #24 on: September 06, 2008, 03:06:22 AM »
Ditto, Harry.  I don't find any advantage to wiping flint of frizzen = although I've been know to do it now and them, to slow things down in a tgiht competition.