Patch woes

[okawbow]

Just finished a Woodsrunner, .54 cal. And tried to get sighted in. 60 grains 2F, .018” denim, balistol and water lube. 1st shot was left. Moved the sights a little, ( actually just centered them better. ) Next 3 were centered better, almost touching. Those patches were ragged but whole. The next 2 shots were low and out of the group and the patches were torn to pieces. Use the same denim on other rifles and the patches can be used again. The barrel is crowned nicely and thumb  polished well.

Rifling too sharp? Bore feels smooth and perfect. Loads easily. What would you look for?

[Hawg]

I would say sharp rifling. My canvas duck patches come out frayed but not cut. I use 90 grains of powder.

[Don Steele]

I wouldn’t look too hard at anything based on so few shots from a new barrel.
Keep shooting and checking patches along the way.

[okawbow]

Thanks, Don, I’ve finished 4 Kiblers lately and they all shot tight groups from the start, and didn’t tear patches. This one seems to hit where aimed unless the patch gets shredded. I will try stronger- thicker patch material and run some green 3m pad down the bore a couple times, I guess. Seems strange the patches are shredding in such a smooth bore.

[Daryl]

If using a .530" ball  I would suggest thicker patch  or a .535" ball. I prefer a .021" to .0225" 10 ounce denim patch. My .36 cal has shallower rifling and it does ok with an 8 ounce (.018") denim and .350" ball, but I still mostly use the 10 ounce fenim in it.

[Daryl]

Shredding around the outside of the patch is caused by the muzzle blast and type of weave of the patch. The heavier the load, the more outside shredding.
There should be a ring of compressed patching inside of the shredding  showing heavier compression from the lands.

[okawbow]

The shredded patches are completely torn apart to little pieces. I think that is causing the fliers. I’ll try a thicker patch, but the ball loads nicely now without having to clean between shots.

[Dphariss]

Heavy linen. I get it from fabrics-store<dot>com  IL090 linen.
I thought what I have was IL091 or IL092  but maybe not. Order a sample. Wash it hot and dry in the dryer then iron and see if its thick enough. My Colonial 54s shoot well with this and a .526/530 ball and 66 gr of FFF Swiss. .535 is too big and will start REALLY hard, linen is harder to compress. So a patch of the same apparent thickness will load hard. Patches are perfect and other than edge fraying could be shot again. Honestly a lot of the denim I have been finding is often really poor and weak when used as patching. Pillow ticking went bad years ago. I have about given up on cotton for patching. If you think it might be the rifling, lube a patch, seat it and run it down then use a ball puller to pull it out. See how it looks.

[recurve]

try steel wool 0000 on a cleaning jag with oil (Mr Chuck Dixon suggested this) try 50 clean the barrel try a patch and do 50 more if needed all cut barrels have burs this will smooth them out or200-500 shots will do the same
before steel wool


after same gun and barrel


image ruI now do this to all new  barrels or rebores

[Daryl]

The shredded patches are completely torn apart to little pieces. I think that is causing the fliers. I’ll try a thicker patch, but the ball loads nicely now without having to clean between shots.

Sounds as if the material has no integrity at all. Are you sure its denim. I have not witnessed this sort of thing myself.

[Hawg]

Shredding around the outside of the patch is caused by the muzzle blast and type of weave of the patch. The heavier the load, the more outside shredding.
There should be a ring of compressed patching inside of the shredding  showing heavier compression from the lands.

Here's a couple of my canvas duck patches.

[alacran]

Whose barrel is in the rifle?

[Bob Gerard]

I’d try different patching material and thicknesses. Also perhaps a different lube.
Every rifle has its own likes. Some take longer to discover than others.

[hudson]

10.10 OZ Army Duck Great for patching. This stuff has such a tight weave you may half to go down one ball size. .020, tighter than any other .020 patching material I have ever used. Picked this up here on the forum and allot of thanks there.
https://www.bigduckcanvas.com/army-duck/10-10-oz-60-inches-wide/

[okawbow]

Thanks for the help everyone. I polished the bore with a few strokes of 3M green pad on an undersized jag. I also found some .022” strong denim. The .530 balls were hard to start, but went down easily after the short starter. All the patches except 1 could be used again. The light was bad and there was a 20 mph wind, but the groups size is ok. I will probably do a little more work on the crown, as the one patch looks like it may have been cut when loading.
60 grains 2F Old Eynesford, .530 hand cast ball, .022 denim patch, balistol and water lube. Kibler woodsrunner barrel and lock.

[Bill in Md]

It will shoot itself in if ya give it time

[Leatherbark]

Not all but with some patch material I have found that "popping" the ball/patch in with a short starter actually disfigures and weakens the patch fibers at the ball circumference causing the patch to burn through.  Pop a tight-fitting ball patch combo in with a short starter and pull it out.  Look at the stretching of the patch fibers right where it contacts the ball.

Bob

[rich pierce]

Not all but with some patch material I have found that "popping" the ball/patch in with a short starter actually disfigures and weakens the patch fibers at the ball circumference causing the patch to burn through.  Pop a tight-fitting ball patch combo in with a short starter and pull it out.  Look at the stretching of the patch fibers right where it contacts the ball.

Bob

Tight weave and strong fibers help the fabric hold up. When I was beginning I tried some muslin. Could never find the patches!

[Daryl]

Glad you are getting it sorted out  okawbow. That first one was cut at the crown, but that it didn't fail, shows it's a good fit.
I found that just hitting the ball into the muzzle with the kbob of the starter would start the ball off-center  that meaning more pressure wad applied to one side than the other. That is when I started using a short peg on the starter's side to start the ball and patch into the bore. I found this phenominum by starting the ball in a long strip then pulling tje ball out and checking it's and the patch's integrity.

[okawbow]

Thanks, Daryl
I use a large square wooden starter with a delrin short peg that has a round hollow in the end to fit the ball. I still need to be sure it sets on the center of the ball and hit the block squarely. I think the other denim I used was just not strong enough. I dropped a light down the barrel after polishing and the bore is perfect and shiny. The Kibler barrels I have seen and used are excellent and I normally get tight groups from the first with no break in period needed. I believe a good barrel should not need to be “shot in” if it is made correctly. I once shot a 10 shot 2.00” string at 30 yards with a new table rifle with a Rice target barrel.

I worked on the crown today, as I think that was the problem. I cut a new crown when I was assembling the rifle because I wanted a little more rounded entry. I don’t think it was smooth enough.

[Daryl]

That was my impression, but knew you'd sort it out. That is what experience does.
The inexperienced leave the crown "as received" normally.

[Daryl]

That was my impression, but knew you'd sort it out. That is what experience does.
The inexperienced leave the crown "as received" normally.

In order to load the snug loads, the crown must be smoothly radiused. It just makes loading that much easier as well.
I find the loading easy in all my rifles, even when using bore sized balls with 10 ounce denim and the rifle's tapered ram rods.
Dont know if it matters, but hit 74yrs. old today.

[okawbow]

Happy Birthday Daryl🎂

[alacran]

Happy Birthday Daryl. I hope I wake up for my 74th.

[grouse]

74 years you should no something!
Happy Birthday!!