Author Topic: Repairing a hole?  (Read 980 times)

Offline Kurt

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Repairing a hole?
« on: July 10, 2024, 10:35:16 PM »
Hello. I have a hole in my stock in the area just ahead of the flash pan and above the internal leaf spring. About 3/8X3/16. It is between the barrel channel and lock space. I would like to repair it and was thinking of using super glue mixed with wood dust from sanding the stock. Would anyone advise differently? Also, Jim Kibler says not to stain the barrel channel and lock space or under the butt plate. I believe the reason is that it is not traditionally done and the chemicals may react with the metals. I am concerned about moisture so would filler sealer be okay in these areas, or perhaps just wax?

Thank you very much.

Offline Rich

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Re: Repairing a hole?
« Reply #1 on: July 10, 2024, 11:51:45 PM »
No need to do anything. It's common.  If it bothers you, you can take a paper thin shaving of wood and glue it over the hole from inside the barrel channel (if there is room). If not, you can reduce the top edge of the mainspring a little or even a few swipes with a file on the barrel flat, or both. Don't get carried away. To make the shaving, use a sharp plane on a piece of scrap and then steam iron it flat. Make it super thin. 

Offline Frozen Run

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Re: Repairing a hole?
« Reply #2 on: July 11, 2024, 12:33:26 AM »
The hole is common to period guns and is in no way harmful to your rifle at all. I would not mess with it. Doing so will likely interfere with the lock sitting down in the mortice fully, and will cause your lock to jam up when the  added wood eventually breaks free.

Offline smart dog

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Re: Repairing a hole?
« Reply #3 on: July 11, 2024, 12:57:40 AM »
Hi Kurt,
First, don't worry about the lock mortise breaking into the barrel channel by the upper leaf of the mainspring.  This is common and is because lock makers do not position that upper leaf low enough on the lock plate to accommodate a barrel with a large breech.  Even if it did not break through, the residual wood is usually paper thin.  Many original guns and high quality contemporary guns have that feature.  With respect to staining, if you are using an acid based stain such as aqua fortis, vinegroon, or even dissolved ferric nitrate, there may be some risk of the acid base reacting with the metal.  If the stain is blushed with heat as it should and then neutralized with baking soda in water, or ammonia, or lye dissolved in water, there should be no acidity left to cause problems. Moreover, if you seal those spaces with finish, you should have no worries.  However, if you stain and/or finish those mortises, the wood may swell and the parts no longer fit without scraping away wood.  So it is a gamble.  I seal those spaces but have to scrape away swelled wood others don't but then have no protection from moisture in those spaces.  You can find plenty of original guns with unstained or sealed mortises that survived several centuries in pretty good shape. I have several originals that had finish applied to the mortises and they are just fine too.

dave
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Offline Kurt

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Re: Repairing a hole?
« Reply #4 on: July 11, 2024, 01:59:00 AM »
Three very helpful replies! Thanks very much.

I will ask another question if I may, regarding smoothing wood after applying a lye solution. I wetted the stock and sanded it with 320 grit 5 times then applied a lye solution. As expected some fibers rose after drying. I can't remember what the technique is called, but would using an object like the side of a plastic marking pen and applying slight pressure to flatten the grain be a good idea or should I just apply my finish? Thanks again. Kurt

Offline Daryl

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Re: Repairing a hole?
« Reply #5 on: July 11, 2024, 02:58:58 AM »
Whiskering is the term you were looking for.
Daryl

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Offline smallpatch

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Re: Repairing a hole?
« Reply #6 on: July 11, 2024, 03:06:28 AM »
I believe hes talking about burnishing.

The only wood I can think of to use lye on, would be cherry. 🍒
In His grip,

Dane

Offline Kurt

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Re: Repairing a hole?
« Reply #7 on: July 11, 2024, 03:12:10 AM »
Yes, it is "burnishing" and the stock is cherry with applied lye. I have decided I will burnish the wood before applying the finish. I think it will show the grain better. Thanks for the advice. Kurt
« Last Edit: July 11, 2024, 05:40:45 AM by Kurt »

Offline 45dash100

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Re: Repairing a hole?
« Reply #8 on: July 11, 2024, 05:52:35 AM »
Yes, it is "burnishing" and the stock is cherry with applied lye. I have decided I will burnish the wood before applying the finish. I think it will show the grain better. Thanks for the advice. Kurt

I'd be worried about the stock not taking up as much finish as normal if you burnish the wood first.  Do it in between coats at the least.

Also, I don't think I'd want to use burnishing to get rid of fine whiskers.  Either scrape, or use fresh sharp sandpaper to remove them.  If you just knock them down, they could stand up again later.  You really want them gone.

ETA:

Looks like Jim burnishes right after putting finish on the stock, in between coats.



« Last Edit: July 11, 2024, 06:02:34 AM by 45dash100 »

Offline Kurt

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Re: Repairing a hole?
« Reply #9 on: July 11, 2024, 07:07:33 AM »
45dash100, Thanks for posting that! I knew I had seen it in Jim Kibler's videos but when I went back looking for that specifically at 2X speed I missed it. Thanks for the explanation too. Kurt

Offline 45dash100

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Re: Repairing a hole?
« Reply #10 on: July 11, 2024, 08:03:53 PM »
45dash100, Thanks for posting that! I knew I had seen it in Jim Kibler's videos but when I went back looking for that specifically at 2X speed I missed it. Thanks for the explanation too. Kurt

No problem!

Offline Jim Kibler

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Re: Repairing a hole?
« Reply #11 on: July 12, 2024, 07:49:46 PM »
It's interesting, I would wager we've gotten the question about the mainspring inlet breaking into the barrel channel hundreds if not over a thousand times.  It's one of those things that people see and think there is a problem.  It can become frustrating, but most accept our explanation and move on.

Just last week a customer saw the hole in the inlet and without even asking about it,  told us how disappointed he was in the kit and that he thought he was buying a to shelf product and since it wasn't he needed compensation.  Yeah, this is what we sometimes have to deal with.

I could probably just adjust the inlet slightly to not break into the channel and avoid all of this silliness.  As long as there is a film of wood there I'm sure no one would ever be concerned.

As to this being not a problem, I don't really know what to say.  Why would you think it is?  This in no way effects the structural integrity of the stock.  In fact the vast majority of lock inlets on original work don't even have ANY wood in this region.  Maybe this would be a better solution. Ha! 

Our lock inlets are better than probably 99 percent of original and contemporary work.

Offline 45dash100

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Re: Repairing a hole?
« Reply #12 on: July 12, 2024, 08:14:56 PM »
It's interesting, I would wager we've gotten the question about the mainspring inlet breaking into the barrel channel hundreds if not over a thousand times.  It's one of those things that people see and think there is a problem.  It can become frustrating, but most accept our explanation and move on.

Just last week a customer saw the hole in the inlet and without even asking about it,  told us how disappointed he was in the kit and that he thought he was buying a to shelf product and since it wasn't he needed compensation.  Yeah, this is what we sometimes have to deal with.

I could probably just adjust the inlet slightly to not break into the channel and avoid all of this silliness.  As long as there is a film of wood there I'm sure no one would ever be concerned.

As to this being not a problem, I don't really know what to say.  Why would you think it is?  This in no way effects the structural integrity of the stock.  In fact the vast majority of lock inlets on original work don't even have ANY wood in this region.  Maybe this would be a better solution. Ha! 

Our lock inlets are better than probably 99 percent of original and contemporary work.

People are used to modern objects designed specifically to avoid these kinds of questions.  If you see an ragged hole in a modern object, it's more likely to be a problem.  Geometry really limits things when you're copying original works, making uninformed opinions harder to avoid.

I think your idea of just making a clean hole might be better received by the general public.  Easier than thickening things and hoping thin wood doesn't behave like thin wood.  Maybe do some A/B testing and see which generates the lowest levels of complaints.   ;D

There's probably a bunch of actuaries working for big companies who's entire job is calculating customer responses to these kinds of things.  *Shudder*

« Last Edit: July 12, 2024, 08:41:56 PM by 45dash100 »

Offline Kurt

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Re: Repairing a hole?
« Reply #13 on: July 12, 2024, 09:20:34 PM »

Since I was the one who asked the question about the hole and a method to fix it, not to be interpreted as a "complaint" or an ask for "compensation". Nor did I say it was a "problem" or intend to cause "frustration". I'll try not to infer any further criticism on my lack of experience with guns that have the defect and I am and was perfectly satisfied with the explanations provided by the other members here that it is common and has been historically. Implied by my reply "Three very helpful replies!. Thanks very much.". I will most likely complete my Kibler kit this weekend and will refrain from any more comments on Kibler products. I will suggest that eliminating "frustrations that have to be dealt with" might be to explain the hole up front. I watched the build videos and didn't see it mentioned. Perhaps I missed it? I worked up an order of a few more Items from Kibler I'll have to review.

Offline 45dash100

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Re: Repairing a hole?
« Reply #14 on: July 12, 2024, 10:46:21 PM »

Since I was the one who asked the question about the hole and a method to fix it, not to be interpreted as a "complaint" or an ask for "compensation". Nor did I say it was a "problem" or intend to cause "frustration". I'll try not to infer any further criticism on my lack of experience with guns that have the defect and I am and was perfectly satisfied with the explanations provided by the other members here that it is common and has been historically. Implied by my reply "Three very helpful replies!. Thanks very much.". I will most likely complete my Kibler kit this weekend and will refrain from any more comments on Kibler products. I will suggest that eliminating "frustrations that have to be dealt with" might be to explain the hole up front. I watched the build videos and didn't see it mentioned. Perhaps I missed it? I worked up an order of a few more Items from Kibler I'll have to review.

I wouldn't feel bad about thinking there was a problem.  It's not normally something you see, and you asked the question in the right way.  The first Kibler kit I bought was advertised as blemished (and the hole was in the pictures of it), and I assumed the hole was part of what put it in that category.  Didn't learn until after I had it in my hands that it's paper thin there.  Also found out it was common on most historical guns after doing a bit of searching on how to patch it.  Ended up not worrying about it.

I also don't think I've ever seen an explanation about the hole in any of the videos, so don't think you missed it.

Offline Jim Kibler

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Re: Repairing a hole?
« Reply #15 on: July 13, 2024, 12:56:54 AM »

Since I was the one who asked the question about the hole and a method to fix it, not to be interpreted as a "complaint" or an ask for "compensation". Nor did I say it was a "problem" or intend to cause "frustration". I'll try not to infer any further criticism on my lack of experience with guns that have the defect and I am and was perfectly satisfied with the explanations provided by the other members here that it is common and has been historically. Implied by my reply "Three very helpful replies!. Thanks very much.". I will most likely complete my Kibler kit this weekend and will refrain from any more comments on Kibler products. I will suggest that eliminating "frustrations that have to be dealt with" might be to explain the hole up front. I watched the build videos and didn't see it mentioned. Perhaps I missed it? I worked up an order of a few more Items from Kibler I'll have to review.

I know it wasn't you who threw a fit.  Didn't intend to offend you, just explaining things a bit, including our frustration!  My apologies.

Jim

Offline smart dog

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Re: Repairing a hole?
« Reply #16 on: July 13, 2024, 01:51:14 PM »
Hi Kurt,
If lock makers made their mainsprings like these original examples:














you would not have many mainsprings breaking into the barrel channel.  Regardless, it is not a problem if it does and is cosmetic rather than structural.

dave
"The main accomplishment of modern economics is to make astrology look good."

Offline Jim Kibler

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Re: Repairing a hole?
« Reply #17 on: July 13, 2024, 04:16:43 PM »
The trouble is that the examples shown are a specific style / period of lock.  If you want to make them true to their original design, this is not an option.

Springs that ride this low are really an anomaly from a historical perspective and to my eye, look really odd.
« Last Edit: July 13, 2024, 04:21:54 PM by Jim Kibler »