Lee “rifling engraved at loading” bullet

[Crow Creek]

Has anyone used this bullet/mold? I am considering giving it a go on a 58 slow twist box lock build.
Tom

[Daryl]

Hi Tom. A close friend of ours, a local fellow, used the 200gr. version of the REAL bullet in his .45 flinter for deer. He found it did not improve the killing power over round balls in the slightest on our mule deer.
I tested the 200 gr. and 220gr. in my .45 flinter with a 60" twist.(GM BL.) I filled the grease grooves  such as they are with 60:40 BW/VASOLINE lube. The accuracy I achieved with 75gr. 3F was almost equivelent to patched round ball. In other words, I was able to make 1" 5-shot groups at 50yds with both bullet weights. I only did this as a test. I also bought a REAL bullet mould for the 440gr. in 58, however I didn't get around to testing those in either of my 58's.

[Crow Creek]

Thanks for info. I ordered both molds from Lee to try with it. How was starting/loading?

[Hungry Horse]

 I don’t recall seeing the Lee bullets offered in .58 cal. But, in my experience bullets like faster twists rather than slower twists. A friend and I played around with a .58 slow twist box lock gun years ago that Dixie was importing and selling so cheap he had to have one. It shot a pretty respectable groups at a hundred yards with a round ball. I think it was 1 in 66 twist.

Hungry Horse

[Hawg]

I tried them years ago in a 1:48 twist and they did ok. In a really slow twist I'd use a minie ball.

[Daryl]

Thanks for info. I ordered both molds from Lee to try with it. How was starting/loading?

Starting and loading was a piece of cake. I choked up on the rod and down they went. Using the lube I noted  or Lyman's Black Powder Gold  or SPG you should easily be able to shoot MANY shots before having to clean the bore. I will qualify that by noting  this is in a smooth bore, not one rotted with Pyrodex.
After firing 10 of these loads, I was easily able to load and shoot a normal .445" ball with .0225 denim patch spit-lubed. This cleaned the bore, allowing the switch to the 220gr. REAL bullet fir its 10 shot test.
The .58 REAL bullet mould I have  casts a 440gr. Bullet.
It is short and will likely shoot well in a 60 or 66" twist.
It would do much better, more than likely,  in a 48" twist.

[Maven]

I had one years ago for a T/C .45cal. Hawken, 1:48 twist.  It shot very well, as well as a Maxi-Ball in that bbl.  The trick, however, is to find one that casts large enough to fit your bore so that the REAL is truly engraved by the rifling.

[Daryl]

In my GM barrel, the top band engraved heavily, then the tapered slug engraved less, to the bottom band that was bore sized. This happened exactly the same on both bullet weights in .45 cal.
These slugs  being shorter than the TC maxi-balls, may not only shoot better, but maintain better stability after impacting with moose and elk.
The maxi-balls failed miserably in this in .50 and .54 calibers up here in the special weapons hunt.
After we got the guys to switch to round balls, they were killing moose with one shot.
With the maxi-balls 3 or more shots were necessary, when they could catch up. Generally, they were shooting 3 or more moose to get one kill with those dang bullets.
I got sick of hearing at lunch time about the morning hunt, "I got "Maxi's" into 3 of them  but they ran off. There was hair but no blood. I must have just creased them".

[Dphariss]

Waste of time and potential for bore obstruction.

[Hungry Horse]

 The R.E.A.L. Bullet by Lee is really finicky when it comes to rifling depth. To deep and it won’t work as advertised, and to shallow and it won’t work as advertised. It seemed to be designed primarily to work in the T/C Hawken, and Renagade, with the button rifling, and the 1 in 48” twist barrels.

Hungry Horse

[Crow Creek]

Thanks for info gents. With this civil war era rifle I just want to try bullets. I have taken a few elk with 54 RB and no issues. RB will probably be the go to.  Building for my son and it will have a 4x brass tube optic.

[Daryl]

HH  interesting, yet they "worked" very well in two. 45's with 60" ROT with .010" rifling depth.
Like I said, interesting.
Like Dan indicated, not necessary and possibly dangerous.
There is always THAT with bullets and ML'S where or if they don't fit well.

[Leatherbark]

I have read in the past that a wad under the R.E.A.L bullet sometimes helps with accuracy.  Make sure you use pure lead.  The mold is sized for the shrinkage diameter of pure lead.  Lead with any alloy will shrink less as it cools and will be larger in diameter and harder to "grave" the rifling.

Bob

[Maven]

A card stock wad under the REAL and T/C Maxi-Ball* does improve improve accuracy a bit.  However, as with most cast bullets, they have to be perfect, especially their bases, to begin with.

*I've owned and/or borrowed several Maxi-Ball moulds and have found the T/C's to be the most consistent dimensionally v. Lyman's.

[Hawg]

Thanks for info gents. With this civil war era rifle I just want to try bullets. I have taken a few elk with 54 RB and no issues. RB will probably be the go to.  Building for my son and it will have a 4x brass tube optic.

Why not use minies. They're historically correct and accurate as long as you don't overpower them.

[Daryl]

I had very good luck with Minnie's in a Bill Large barrel.
That one had a 56" or 66" rifling twist.
I pulled the wooden handles off the several.moulds I used  all Lyman moulds, and turned the base plugs down a bit to thicken the skirts. After replacing the wooden handles the "work" began.
The OS Minnie came out nearly 500gr. The 505gr came out at 560gr. The 570gr. #57789(I think) came out at 675gr.
The lighter weight Minnie's shot well with 140gr. of 2F GOEX.
The heaviest one shot best with 165gr. 2F GOEX at 1,375fps.
The recoil was a bit stiff, especially with the S. Hawken's thin hooked butt plate.

[WonkyEye]

The R.E.A.L. Bullet by Lee is really finicky when it comes to rifling depth. To deep and it won’t work as advertised, and to shallow and it won’t work as advertised. It seemed to be designed primarily to work in the T/C Hawken, and Renagade, with the button rifling, and the 1 in 48” twist barrels.

Hungry Horse

I can confirm, my .50 1:48 T/C Hawken likes the 240gr REAL.  I powder coat them, use a lubed hard felt wad between the powder and the bullet.  I get  a 5" 5 shot group at 100 yards.  With PRB it's about a 9" spread at that range.

[Daryl]

I agree, as you are confirming that they shot well in your TC rifle.
I also confirmed that they shot even better in my GM round ball rifle.
Some Winchester rifles of the ctg era also had 60"ROT'S, and shot quite well with short bullets.

[Steeltrap]

Go to post #5 at this link:  https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=82024.0

This is my .54 GM barrel using Minie's. The load is also listed there and the process of giving the hollow cavity a slight flair so the Minie stays down the barrel. (Primarily in hunting situations)

[DanL]

@Crow Creek; you asked if anyone had used the Lee R.E.A.L mold.

I do not have experience with .58.

I have used it with great success in Thompson Center .45 & .50  hawken, in .45 Seneca. & Cherokee and other .50 muzzleloaders. Once the accurate load is worked out, I find these conicals to be just as accurate as the roundball. I also have great success with Hornady’s PA conical bullet. My success is measured in accuracy and kill compared to the roundball.

My experience:     The R.E.A.L and other conical/barrel relationship is Similar to the Patch/ball/barrel relationship, there is no generic patch thickness but only the best patch/ball/barrel fit for accuracy in the barrel being used. This can only come from experimental testing. One size does not fit all.

Kill:
 Caveat: my experience is 55 years killing Alabama white-tailed deer, feral or wild hogs, coyotes and other pests.

The .50 & 45 round balls kill these sized animals easily and effectively. However, I get pass throughs only if no bone or hard surface is impacted resulting in less blood trail to find the animal. The conicals cast from dead soft lead gives a bit more pass through per caliber than the roundball and being soft lead mushrooms sufficiently. I prefer shooting the lower calibers and through experimentation have found what works for me.

For the cost of the molds and some fun experimentation, I suggest trying the conical bullets. I still use the round ball when I choose.

Enjoy the ride.

[Bob Roller]

The very first barrel Bill Large actually made(manufactured)was a 58 caliber,33 inches and one inch across the flats with a 1 in 44"8 groove twist and it was a match winner from the minute I finished it.The year was 1958.Bill bought rifled round blanks with a twist suitable for round balls from John Buehmiller in Montana until he got his shop built and working.Deep hole drills and reamers,two planers and new Bridgeport Vertical milling machine and two lathes plus large and small cutoff saws.Bill modified the lands on the Buemiller barrel blanks to his ideas as to what he thought was needed and they worked well.There is no reason rifling engraved at loading can't work but to me it make no sense in a patched ball but in a gun made specifically for bullets it works well.I made a long range 451 and the real land diameter was .450.I used the old Lyman 451112 that weighed about 485 grains and shot it against BPCR at 500 meters and won.Powder charge was 80 grains 3fg Goex or 70 of Swiss 3fg if I had it to use.IF the REAL bullets give good performance in round ball barrels there is no reason not to use them unless they DO show an advantage over the traditional patched round ball. know this is repeating old information but there may be new members here that never knew any of the founders of the NMLRA and should have some idea about us.
Bob Roller

[Bob Roller]

I agree, as you are confirming that they shot well in your TC rifle.
I also confirmed that they shot even better in my GM round ball rifle.
Some Winchester rifles of the ctg era also had 60"ROT'S, and shot quite well with short bullets.

That's right and I had a 50-110 with a 1 in 60 "twist" and if enfeebled memory still works,the US 58 caliber Springfield had a 1 in 72"twist".
I used a Minie hollow base in mine.
Bob Roller

[Bull Shannon]

I had great success using the REAL bullet out of Lyman fast twist Great Plains Hunter barrel. I started with the heavier weights and found that accuracy improved the lighter the bullet as well as a lubed fiber wad. Using the 220 grain 50 caliber bullet, a fiber wad and 95 grains of 3f I could almost put a round on top of another at 75 yards. I never tested it past that though and recoil was stout.