Schimmel?? With Pics!!

[bbhf]

Greetings to all: i am new to this site but not to muzzle loading: this is an outstanding site: i acquired this gun many years ago and this seems like the perfect place to show it off and get some info: the specs: 54"L- 39"bl- 13" pull- 2 3/4" tang- 3"drop- 1 3/8" butt- 38 cal: the barrel has a slight flare at the muzzle: the two script letters on top of the barrel ?? the lock is marked FAHNESTOCK: could this be a hardware lock? nice pewter? nose cap: there are three dots in the shape of a "V" fore and aft of the rear sight: nice touch: i am thinking that the barrel was from another gun: the tang is held down with a wood screw, does not go down to the plate: the trigger guard is forged and a beauty: its slim and nicely done: the triggers are also very dainty and nicely done: any one have any thoughts on this piece? oh yes, this gun was loaded when i got it: sk     PS: can some one tell me how to add pics to the post?? i do not see any link for attaching photos:

[Ky-Flinter]

PS: can some one tell me how to add pics to the post?? i do not see any link for attaching photos:

bbhf,
Welcome to ALR.  Try this.... http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=10.0

-Ron

[bbhf]

Ron: thanks for the info: i have printed it out and will give it a go: skip

[bbhf]

OK: pics are up: what a process: whew!! let me know what you think: skip

[bbhf]

i added a couple of more pics to the post: i have read with interest the many posts on southern guns: i wonder where this one fits in: i was thinking of building a copy of this one to use in the field: flint or percussion? any thoughts as to why some have cheek pieces and some don't? thanks again for the help on how to post pictures: skip

[Dave B]

What a Great rifle. Is the trigger bar assembly held in only by the trigger guard? It looks like that may be the situation. Is there an entry pipe on the forearm? Can you post a photo of that view. Thanks for sharing this with us here.

[bbhf]

There is no entry pipe: two very thin sheet metal pipes for the ramrod: its been a long time since i have had this apart but it would appear that there are no screws in the plate:

[Dr. Tim-Boone]

Skip, what makes you think the barrel was from another gun??  I have never seen a lock like that....appears to be extra holes in the front bottom of the lock plate??

[bbhf]

Tim: its only a guess on my part as to the barrel: the slight flare at the muzzle led me to think the rear might have been cut off? the lock is straight edged along the top: the drum cut out is rough: i will try to post a more clear pic on the lock inside and out: skip

[Mike Brooks]

I have never seen a lock like that....appears to be extra holes in the front bottom of the lock plate??

That's a shotgun lock. Don't know about the extra holes....

[bbhf]

Mike: i thought that also: i am going to post a few more shots of this gun: the lock mortice shot shows the ramrod poking through: there are three small holes in the front part of the lock: the one in the center is for the main spring, the others? the main spring has a stirrup on the end: there is no stop for the hammer: if you let the hammer down the main spring falls below the plate:  there is only one notch on the tumbler: bring the hammer back, set the rear trigger and then pull the front one to fire: also there are a couple of pics of the entry and a pipe: thanks, skip

[Dave B]

Skip,
 Thanks for the extra photos it helps to see these details. Tim you were asking about the extra holes in the front portion of the lock plate. The mainspring was replaced and the new springs stud was in a different location they just left the old springs stud hole unplugged.  This type of lock was use on two Hawken shope rifles I have run across, One is the fancy rifle in the Cody Museum the other is a full stock shown in Baird's book The Hawken Rifle Mountain mans choice.  Years back I did see a nice Kuntz rifle that had one of these locks and thought it very ugly. Now I wish I had invested the money to bring it home. The price was right.

[WElliott]

An interesting rifle. I may be in error, but the triggers make me think Tennessee, with the deep crescent rear and straight front trigger.  The guard could be Tennessee or surrounding areas.  The stock architecture is not typical east Tennessee, but is not atypical for middle or western Tennessee.  The lock appears to have been in the mortise for a long time and not a replacement to this stock.  Is that your opinion, bbhf?  If so, I wonder if the triggers and guard were taken from an earlier gun.  Thanks for letting us look.

[bbhf]

Wayne: the gun has some contradictions:  very plain stock, no butt plate, no entry pipe, rough lock cut out for drum, wood screw to hold tang etc: yet, a very nice set of triggers, nice trigger guard, nose cap, good barrel. signature on the top flat looks well done: i guess that is why i love these rifles: it was my hope that this rifle could be added to the many other similar types to be studied and leave us scratching our heads? skip

[WElliott]

Skip,
You are right.  A rifle I have had for years has a J. Graeff signature on the top barrel flat and an early flintlock; yet a grease hole, no buttplate and a crude iron trigger guard.  The barrel and lock were probably salvaged from an early PA Graeff gun, yet I think the "restock" itself is very early 1800s.  One of those appealing working rifles which, like yours, make us once again say "if it only could talk . . . "

[Curt J]

The more I study the pictures of this rifle, the more similarities I see to rifles made by Samuel Smith. I own four of them, and should have submitted pictures of them to the Museum and Library before now. 

Samuel Smith was born in Pennsylvania in about 1801. He is listed in the 1850 census as a gunsmith in Astoria Township, Fulton County, Illinois. His eldest son, Harvey, was 19 years old, born in Pennsylvania, and was also listed as a gunsmith. Six other children, ages 15; 13; 11; 9; 7; and 5, were all born in Ohio, although Smith seems to be unknown among Ohio collectors. He came to Fulton County, Illinois in about 1846. He was a farmer as well as a gunsmith, and his shop was on his farm. He was surprisingly prolific as a rifle maker and quite a number of his rifles are know here. All are fullstocks, two of my four were made without buttplates, three have brass trigger guards, but the fourth has a beautifully made hand-forged iron trigger guard.  The rear sights look a lot like the one on this rifle, including the notch filed across the front.  One of them has three punchmarks, forming a "V" at either end of the rear sight, just as you describe. Is the base of the front sight made of brass and staked in with four neat punch marks? All of the Samuel Smith rifles have very nice triggers and the rear trigger has an extremely deep crescent, like this rifle.  Samuel Smith signed his rifles with a script "S. S.", and the picture of this signature certainly looks like it could be his, although it has enough wear that it's hard to say for sure. Samuel Smith died Sept. 4, 1872. I have copies of his estate inventory, which has a fairly extensive list of gunsmith's tools.

I should mention that there are also some differences.  Three of my rifles have a bit more graceful architecture than this one, but the fourth one is similar. That one has a full patchbox, and I considered that to be the only reason it has a higher comb, but maybe not.  Also, my Smith rifles all have a pronounced forward "hook" at the back of the trigger guard rail. This rifle is just the opposite, with the hook turning back. I have often thought that Samuel Smith's style continued  to evolve a little through the years, so some details could easily differ .

[bbhf]

Curt: good info, thanks: as to the front sight , yes: what still does not fit though is the poor fit of the lock plate to the drum: skip

[Curt J]

I will try to get at least one of the Samuel Smith rifles photographed and submit it to the Museum & Library here soon.  I'll make a point of showing the little details I mentioned.

My best guess is that the lock has been replaced, probably during the time when the rifle was still in use.  They were probably not too concerned with how it looked, as long as it worked.