Five or nine grooves?

[Sandro_ventania]

If you had only two choices for a ball and patch rifle...one with a 5 groove barrel and one with a 9 groove barrel. Which would you choose and why?

[rich pierce]

In a .25 to .32 I’d choose 5 grooves. In a .62 or larger I’d choose a 9 groove. In between the standard 7 groove would be my choice. The reason is related to the circumference of the bore, minimum width of grooves in the smaller calibers, and not wanting huge wide lands in a big bore.

[Daryl]

If of the same caliber, I would choose the one with the narrowest lands. Narrow lands allow easy loading with tight combinations. Tight combinations give the best accuracy. As Rich says though, the larger the bore, the more grooves are needed (to reduce the amount of land surface area)

[Sandro_ventania]

In a .25 to .32 I’d choose 5 grooves. In a .62 or larger I’d choose a 9 groove. In between the standard 7 groove would be my choice. The reason is related to the circumference of the bore, minimum width of grooves in the smaller calibers, and not wanting huge wide lands in a big bore.

interesting... good answer! Thank you!

[Scota4570]

I do not think the number of grooves matters. 

The relative width of the lands and grooves does.  Also the depth.  IF excessively deep grooves with narrow grooves, you are sunk.  I prefer about 70%:30% and grooves that are not super deep.  All you need it about .005" deep in 45 cal.  0.010 is way more than enough.  All the barrels we can get are deeper than 0.005". 

I had a 32 delivered that way, narrow deep grooves with wide lands.  It was pure junk.  The maker told me it did not matter.  Obviously he does not shoot.  I knew it was no good at first glance.  I tried it against my better judgement.   IN hindsight I will reject all such barrels in the future. 

The problem is that you have no choice on these specifications.  The barrels are made in large batches, not on a custom basis.  I also found that a custom barrel maker was so busy that he agreed to my specification before the job then ignored them  when doing the work.   

Green Mountain makes good barrels that follow these "rules".   45 or larger I always get Green Mountain. Old Green Mountain barrels are even better. 

Pay your money take your chances!  I wish I had the room to make my own barrels.  That way there would be nobody else to blame.     

[P.W.Berkuta]

I vote for Richs groove count because of fowling issues.

[Daryl]

I must note that with the ball and patch combinations I use, I've never - NEVER had a fouling issue since about 1973.
I wonder why? & I never have to swab my bore after 20 shots or over 100 shots fired. Even with a lag in time, I've always been able to load the next round even if the fouling from the last shot had dried. This says something for a wet patch when shooting a lot of rounds.
Maybe the combinations and muzzle crown recommendations we've been suggesting actually work?
I know of a bunch of guys here have adapted these principles on loading & I applaud their noting improved shooting as a result. Good job, boys.

[P.W.Berkuta]

Your are a VERY lucky man - a LOT of us are not that fortunate. Maybe it's your weather - 

[JBJ]

My favorite! This is a .40 Rice barrel (7/8 inch by 42") purchased from Jason about ten years ago. The width of lands amd groves suits me to a "T". I believe it is capable of far greater accuracy than the old man behind the trigger. Also, allow me to add an "Amen" to Daryl's comments.

J.B.

[Daryl]

Nice crown JB.

[Sandro_ventania]

My favorite! This is a .40 Rice barrel (7/8 inch by 42") purchased from Jason about ten years ago. The width of lands amd groves suits me to a "T". I believe it is capable of far greater accuracy than the old man behind the trigger. Also, allow me to add an "Amen" to Daryl's comments.

J.B.

I really like this type of barrel, very narrow lands. What is the twist? How deep are the grooves?

[JBJ]

It's a 1 in 48 twist, but I have never tried to determine the depth of the groves. It's my favorite combination of narrow lands and wide groves. Funny thing about the whole deal was I had called Jason and stopped by his shop enroute to Knoxville, TN and this barrel was what he handed me (Thanks, Jason). We chatted a few minutes and I resumed my trip to K'town. Never looked at the bore until I began the building process. I was very happy with what I saw! Is it standard for Rice barrels? I don't know, but maybe others will chime in on this question. However, it takes a tight combination of patch and ball readily, cleans like a breeze, and I am sure is capbale of much finer accuracy than the old geezer that owns it.

J.B.

[Daryl]

J.B. That bore looks almost identical to a Goodoien match barrel.
Mine (G) in .40 cal. made a number of 1/2", 5 shot groups for me at 50 yards. It also had a 48" rate of twist, a similar crown and easy to load with a bore sized ball and 10 ounce denim patch. Depth of rifling was .010" same as my recent Rice .36 barrel with identical bore land and groove ratios.

[Bob Roller]

Going to a flawed memory and a feeble mind,I think N.G.Whitmore made 10 groove barrels and used picket "balls"and shot a group with the rifle he made for General Grant at 110 yards of 10 shots into the diameter of a cap box.Major Roberts said Whitmore's rifles were considered as unfair competition so it appears old N;G.was on the right track.I tried to get Bill Large to make at least an experimental barrel with 10 grooves,one every 36 degrees and we's test it but that never happened.I did get tight groups at 100 yards with an 8 groove 58 caliber barrel made by Bill and it was with a 1 and 1/8" by 34"barrel I had mounted a full length Malcolm telescope on it and from a rest it was easy to stay in the 10 and "X"rings.Whether or not a 10 groove barrel would do any better I don't know and now never will.The Grant rifle was shot with a scope sight made by Whitmore and was 38 caliber,
Bob Roller

[treed]

Speaking of lands/grooves, I have seen pictures over the years of original bores with very wide lands and very narrow grooves, mainly in research on early Hawkens. (See Jim Bridgers Hawken rifle) Seems opposite to what we see today. I have a Bill Large barrel from the 70"s and it is narrow lands/wide grooves. It shoots well, but the bore does not resemble the original rifle I was trying to replicate. Just curious why no one would want to rifle barrels in the manner that the Bridger rifle has for authenticity sake.

[Carper]

I cut 8 grooves in a barrel with my present old timey machine. It’s been in use on southern rifles since 1864. I cut a groove narrow in relation to the land width.  The barrels look exactly like the land /groove geometry seen in lots and lots of old originals.  I usually try to cut .008 deep or so in 45 size bores but occasionally only get .005 ( particularly on small calibers)  all are 1 turn in 48”.  With reasonable charges these barrels will shoot 3 shots into a group under 2”  usually about 1 3/4” but have shot a little better than 1”  not too infrequently. At 100 yards . With a double bag rest.  To get the best accuracy they do start hard.I like my patch material to impress its weave on the ball not only at the lands but to be slightly visible in the groove as well. Takes a well greased .015 patch to not tear at loading. These barrels are harder to get clean than store bought rifling.  I’m amused by folks who take the pains to use only period designs and old timey finishes and then a cursory look at the muzzle causes it to lose its mystic for me.  I fully believe a modern rifle / groove configuration is superior but I must say my barrels hold their own and have won a many mountain shooting matches.

[Daryl]

My .32 barrel was kinda like carper's and had an accuracy ceiling of 1" at 50 yards. It would do no better, while at the same time, both my .40 and .45 were making 1/2" groups.
I gave it away & replaced it with a Rice barrel. I'd ordered a .32, but received a .36 - didn't matter, had the ball moulds anyway.

[Sandro_ventania]

I cut 8 grooves in a barrel with my present old timey machine. It’s been in use on southern rifles since 1864. I cut a groove narrow in relation to the land width.  The barrels look exactly like the land /groove geometry seen in lots and lots of old originals.  I usually try to cut .008 deep or so in 45 size bores but occasionally only get .005 ( particularly on small calibers)  all are 1 turn in 48”.  With reasonable charges these barrels will shoot 3 shots into a group under 2”  usually about 1 3/4” but have shot a little better than 1”  not too infrequently. At 100 yards . With a double bag rest.  To get the best accuracy they do start hard.I like my patch material to impress its weave on the ball not only at the lands but to be slightly visible in the groove as well. Takes a well greased .015 patch to not tear at loading. These barrels are harder to get clean than store bought rifling.  I’m amused by folks who take the pains to use only period designs and old timey finishes and then a cursory look at the muzzle causes it to lose its mystic for me.  I fully believe a modern rifle / groove configuration is superior but I must say my barrels hold their own and have won a many mountain shooting matches.

It's great to know that a barrel with this type of groove shoots well. You have a rifling machine, so I have a question... when you put a shim in the cutter to deepen the groove, doesn't the cutter get stuck? I've seen videos of these machines where it looks like the cutter is free, they pass it so lightly.

[Carper]

You have to be carful what thickness of paper you shim with. Indeed you can get it so tight it cannot be pulled . Remember the cutter is just made of wood so you cant pull with all your might or it will break. I usually try to use an onion skin type paper and it seems to work well.   As I stated these rifles usually will print round balls  under 2” inches at 100 yards routinely.  1 1/2 to 1 3/4  center to center is not infrequent.  That’s as good as I can shoot anything reliably with iron sights.  As some on this forum report much better accuracy with different geometry and loads , I simply have never been good enough to shoot anything into those size groups.  I can say I never felt inadequate in completion with these homemade rifles but I never faced some of you all either.  I guess I could have been handicapping myself all these years 😂

[Hungry Horse]

 An interesting anomaly in the number of grooves happened to me. Years ago I was friends with old Turner at Dixie gun works. I got a wreck of a gun from somebody to rebuild, but the barrel was heavily pitted. So I called Dixie to get a barrel. It just so happened that Turner took the call. He persuaded me to try a new barrel he was marketing with only four grooves. It was cheap, so I ordered one. The barrel arrived, and actually looked pretty good. The rifling was deep, and actually looked to be cut rather than button. I finished the gun and took it out to sight it in. I was stunned at how accurate it was. Later I ran into a guy at a rendezvous that had one of these barrels in .45 as well, and he was looking for another one also.

Hungry Horse

[Daryl]

Your are a VERY lucky man - a LOT of us are not that fortunate. Maybe it's your weather - 

Nothing to do with luck or the weather. When it's raining here, the humidity is usually under 90  commonly 85.
Our winters are usually quite dry. We shoot pretty much all winter, spring and fall. At BC Rendezvous  the humidity is single digits.
 The muzzle's crown allowing tight combinations along with a lube that works is the only reason.

[Bob Roller]

i thought it was winter up there all the time .The most accurate barrel I owned was a the 7 groove Alex Henry barrel on my semi miltary Whitworth.7 very wide grooves and narrow lands that looked pointed.angled.
I worked up  a patched ball load for it so a friend in a wheel chair could shoot it and some small boys as well.
40 grains of DuPont 3fg and a .445 ball patched with blue denim from old work pants.No recoil noticed and the man in the wheelchair was a USMC veteran with spinal cord injury from VietNam.
Bob Roller