Hawken Kit what do i have ...

[KlausS.]

Good Morning,

my Name is Klaus and i am from Germany.

Last Week i was able to buy Hawken Style Rifle and some Question occur for myselfe

What do i have here ?

Due to sellers information it shall be an American Made Hawken with a Bill Large Barrel but i found no hints about it.

So would post hier some Pics and hope that you Gent`s coul help and bring some light in the Darkness
















thx and regards

Klaus

[rich pierce]

Greetings! All the Bill Large barrels I’ve seen or heard of are stamped on the angled flat nearest the lock bolts. Your rifle is generally of the Hawken styling. Rifles made by J&S Hawken and S Hawken normally used a patent breech, not a drum and nipple setup. Overall, a nice looking rifle.

[Bob Roller]

Guten Morgen,
That is an American style hunting or wit better sights it can be a target rifle.The triggers were made by Sid Estep now retired and maybe his lock.It will be marked with his name inside the plate.The barrel if it IS from Bill Large will be marked with his name W.M.Large.This looks like a good rifle.I showed Sid Estep how to use his superb shop skills in making locks and triggers and told him to contact Guenter Stifter in Trimbs or Helmut Mohr in Mayen Hausen.He quit locks and triggers and another good craftsman was lost.He had a good job with the rail road
I saw in the Muzzle Blasts magazine the Helmut Mohr died and do you know if his shop was destroyed when the Nette suddenly flooded Mayen.
Bob Roller

[KlausS.]

Hello Bob,
thx for your answer.
Unfortunately  there are no marks other hints on the Barrel or inside the Lock except the triggergard was stamped with the name Estep. I was in Contact with Dieter and Guenter Stifter and they refused my question if they had build the Rifle in the 1980. Dieter assume that Helmut Mohr could be the builder of this Rifle but as you sa corretely he has passed away

Dieter told me that the Barrel seems to be cut at the breech and a unprofessionell  Man has create this unusal  Breech and very tinny mettal strip  to hold the Barrel in place on this stock.

Dieter also told that the look looks like an italian lock
Do you know if Sid Estep ha build this kind of Locks ?

The Mohr Gunshop was not Destroyd by the Flood in Mayen but he was out of business since some time .

kind regards

KLaus

[Eric Krewson]

Large barrels are marked like this, they may have JJJ under his name which are the first initials of his daughters first names. In this case he got one stamp upside down, this barrel is a Large barrel and not a fake.



This is the rifling in a Large barrel, narrow lands and wider grooves;

[Bob Roller]

Klaus,
This is not a low level gun and the thin tang and screws will keep it in place.The OLD original Hawken did not use a fine lock and the locks I made and those of Sid Estep are or were better quality than any used in the 19th century.When the muzzle loading rifle was revived here in America the hard idea was a pretty stock,best barrel and trim and the cheapest locks.I got requests to rebuild these low quality locks and I refused to think about it.Iwould say "I am busy trying NOT to make my own mistakes and have no time for correcting others".
Is Gunther still making/selling the fine flints. I see the name of Rita now.Is she Gunther's wife or sister or???
Bob Roller

[KlausS.]

Good Morning,

thx a lot for your Information

@ Eric the Rifling of my Barrel are very similar to yours,unfortunately without the Marks .

@ Bob, Dieter Stifter are in Business you can find his Page on Internet  www.vorderlader.de

Günter and Rita are a couple and he and his wife are also right in business  you find him  under www.stifters-gunflints.de
Iam reassured that i had got no junk with this Hawken.

If you get more Info about the Lock i would appreciate it much.

regards

Klaus

[Bob Roller]

klaus,
I am glad to be of help.IF that lock was made by Sid Estep it will have his name inside.This rifle is a common style and not all American half stock guns had a bolster breech.I made a good copy of another heavy  rifle marked L.Henry and it had a drum and nipple and silver butt plate and trigger guard with a single set trigger (FranzosischerRuckstecher).I had forgot Dieter Stifter.  Guenter Stifter was the man who opened the German market for me and then Helmut Mohr's target pistols and rifles kept me busy for a long time until he thought I was part of his shop and tried to monopolize my time.I worked in the shop until I was 83 and now,done,finished and relaxing.
Bob Roller

[Top Jaw]

Assuming you also scoured all the underneath flats for a makers stamp. 

Not being a jerk wad with this next comment.  Just stating a fact from my own personal experience.  Though it may in fact be an actual Bill Large barrel…..if it doesn’t carry his stamp, there is no real way of verifying that.  And unfortunately as a result, it’s just an “unknown” and unmarked barrel. 

It could have been a 42 inch Large barrel that was cut down on the breach end and and re-tapped for a breach plug, thus removing the makers mark.  A little Unusual to do it that way, but a possibility.  But if so, they also removed the proof.  (Rifling patterns alone won’t do it).   At least when the time arrives for reselling it.  Hard to claim it’s a Large, without a way to verify it’s a Large.   Sort of like having a Hudson Bay blanket without the HB label.  It’s just an unmarked wool blanket at the point it’s sold.  My 2 cents FWIW. 

[smylee grouch]

How many groves does this barrel have?  I have had three ( 3 ) of Bill,s barrels and all had 7 cuts. This one looks to have more to my old blurry  eyes.   

[Ky-Flinter]

Hi Klaus,

Welcome to ALR.  I'm curious about how the breech end of the barrel is sealed.  It doesn't appear to have the usual threaded in breech plug with attached tang or a hooked breech configuration.  If you plan to shoot the rifle, I would check this area carefully.

Ron

[Justin Urbantas]

Is the end of the tube welded up, or just not drilled all the way through?

[Daryl]

Justin, your comment prompted me enlarge the picture of the breech.
Hard to say just what the breech is, isn't it!
Click on the picture twice.

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

Enlarging the photo by double clicking...appears the barrel is plugged with what might be an allen screw, and then a piece of approx. 3/16" steel welded right to the barrel for the tang.  Does it work - I guess so.  But it is not up to the Hawken standard by any means.  Looks dodgey to me.

[Bsharp]

It looks like the tang is just part of the barrel that has been thinned?

[Dennis Glazener]

It looks like the tang is just part of the barrel that has been thinned?

I agree, it sure looks like the tang is actually a thinned section of the barrel, I have never seen one made that way. I guess its possible that it was welded like Taylor says, should be able to tell with close inspection with a jewlers loup.
Dennis

[KlausS.]

Hello all,

i will take some more better pictures and post it soon.

Klaus

[Bob Roller]

A Hawken profile in all but the bolster breech. The milling the barrel for an integrated tang and then threading the bore for a plug of some kind would be difficult but having never thought of it I can't say for sure.Some real close pictures will help.
Bob Roller

[Daryl]

Especially end-on picture of the back end of the barrel.

[General]

I'm definitely not an expert, but looking at the plug in the breech, it appears to be some kind of JB Weld, or something similar.  I would not pull the trigger on it until I was for sure.  Did you get an inspection time so you can send it back?  If so, I know where it would be heading, if it were me.  Good luck and welcome to the site.

[Hungry Horse]

 The old Allen set screw breech plug is what Numrich arms used on their minuteman rifle. I don’t recall hearing about any of them blowing up, but they were notorious for snapping at the wrist if they fell down. I got two of them that way.

Hungry Horse