Author Topic: A group of related smoothbore guns attributed to New England  (Read 5600 times)

Offline rich pierce

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A group of related smoothbore guns attributed to New England
« on: October 29, 2024, 07:03:51 PM »
Club-butt fowlers are a bit off to the side of the focus here, but I want to share some thoughts and perhaps promote discussion about a group of guns attributed to New England, that appear to be related.

Guns 1 and 2 There are 2 early fowlers (CB-6 and CB-7) in Tom Grinslade’s book, Flintlock Fowlers, in the club-butt section, that are closely related.  CB-6 and CB-7 share features including dual cheekpieces, unusual nautilus shell-like carving, near identical tang carving, and elongated nosecaps attached directly to the barrel by a pin through the front underlug.  Sideplates are very similar and have silver inlays or thin silver overlays soldered to the brass sideplates.  CB-6 appears to be stocked in American walnut to me, but it could be cherry.  CB-7 is stocked in curly maple.
Wester White’s newly released book, Historic Arms of Early New York, 1640 to 1850, also illustrates these 2 guns.  Wes White’s S2.15 = Grinslade’s CB6 =, and Wes White’s S2.16 = Grinslade’s CB-7.
Here are some pictures of CB-6









Gun 3 Recently, DaveM shared a short colonial musket with the hallmark nosecap shared by CB-6 and -7, but with no cheekpieces and quite different carving of the buttstock. The sideplate is not reminiscent of sideplates on CB-6 and -7.  Here is DaveM’s post: https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=82012.msg806747#msg806747  This gun is stocked in curly maple.  Based on the nosecap, symmetry of carving on left and right sides, and tang carving, I propose it is closely related to the 2 guns above.







Gun 4 Wes White's book showed a spectacular smooth rifle which has carving around the comb almost identical to Gun 3 above.  Tang carving is like the 3 guns above.  Unusual features include an inlaid brass “death mask” on the barrel, rifle style guard of quite early form, a rifle-like cheekpiece that fell off (it was glued on and doweled), and a cool buttplate with a comb extension featuring a dragon head eating the buttplate tang extension.  The buttplate has engraving of a folksy form such as we might find on powder horns, and in script, “W Wood”, and “1744”.  White suggested this W Wood was a NY gunsmith listed in a compilation by R. H Blackburn.  We normally view such early dates with great skepticism.

Gun 5 is at auction here https://live.amoskeagauction.com/lot-details/index/catalog/122/lot/86176/Very-Fine-Unmarked-Club-Butt-Buccaneer-Long-Fowler?url=%2Fauctions%2Fcatalog%2Fid%2F122%3Flotnum%3D364#mz-expanded-view-103043114147 . This gun appears to be later based on the lock marked T Ketland and Co.  It shares the common nosecap form and like Gun 4 above, has a “death mask” barrel inlay.  The sideplate is shaped and engraved similarly to CB-6 and -7.
Some pictures







Altogether, it seems we have a set of related guns likely made in the same shop, and possibly by the same hand, spanning at least 1770 (Tom Grinslade's estimate for CB-6) to 1790 (proposed date for Gun 5 at Amoskeag auction based on the T Ketland lock).  I don't know what to make of the 1744 date for gun 4, but the profile sure looks like a HVF of 1760's, with an early rifle style guard we'd be expecting to find on a pre-1770 rifle.  The maker(s) used curly maple, cherry, and possibly walnut, multiple carving tyles (all unusual), and several architectures.

Thoughts?


« Last Edit: October 29, 2024, 10:11:34 PM by rich pierce »
Andover, Vermont

Offline WKevinD

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Re: A group of related smoothbore guns attributed to New England
« Reply #1 on: October 30, 2024, 08:36:27 PM »
Rich,
The butt plate on CB7 is similar to a HVF at Old Stone Fort. Is it cast or formed? The deep heal makes me think it must be cast but the end view of the heel looks to be formed sheet. Also curious about the nose cap and what looks like solder at the barrel.
Really like that one. In my opinion Grinslade did not give it enough attention.
I've watched you form buttplates but none as deep as that one
Kevin



PEACE is that glorious moment in history when everyone stands around reloading.  Thomas Jefferson

Offline rich pierce

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Re: A group of related smoothbore guns attributed to New England
« Reply #2 on: October 30, 2024, 09:43:40 PM »
Hi Kevin,
I’ve not had CB-7 in my hands but I can share more construction details of CB-6.
Buttplate: appears cast but I cannot remove it. The head of the buttplate screw at the heel is gone.
Nosecap: affixed by a pin through the front underlug. With a flashlight there’s no sign of solder.
Underlugs: tiny and dovetailed. Those guys could drill straight!
Tang and lock bolts: hand forged. The front lock bolt has been tapered in the middle to allow the ramrod to pass.
Front 2 thimbles: not pinned. The tabs are folded in the barrel channel! Like some trade guns.
Touch hole: very low on the barrel.
Wood: after looking in the barrel channel it is definitely cherry.













Andover, Vermont

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Re: A group of related smoothbore guns attributed to New England
« Reply #3 on: October 31, 2024, 01:04:31 AM »
Great photos Rich.

Without seeing a photo of the lock interior, to me, the lock mortice looks fairly pristine.

Excellent untouched patina on the barrel and screws.

Offline WKevinD

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Re: A group of related smoothbore guns attributed to New England
« Reply #4 on: October 31, 2024, 01:17:11 AM »
Rich. That concave forend sure is attractive. I have seen thimbles that were folded to secure them but not with small front and rear tabs, nice detail.
I notice that the trigger guards appear surface mounted. Is that typical  for this form of NE fowler?

Kevin
PEACE is that glorious moment in history when everyone stands around reloading.  Thomas Jefferson

Offline rich pierce

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Re: A group of related smoothbore guns attributed to New England
« Reply #5 on: October 31, 2024, 01:34:33 AM »
Rich. That concave forend sure is attractive. I have seen thimbles that were folded to secure them but not with small front and rear tabs, nice detail.
I notice that the trigger guards appear surface mounted. Is that typical  for this form of NE fowler?

Kevin
Kevin, the guards are inletted. Cameras lie sometimes!  ;D

Another detail; the side plate was much thinner than I expected. And the side plate inlet was smooth and flat as a glassy lake with the moon shining on it. The skills shown in making this gun impress me.
Andover, Vermont

Online John Proud

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Re: A group of related smoothbore guns attributed to New England
« Reply #6 on: October 31, 2024, 04:55:54 PM »
Interesting. Learning a lot . Please keepthe pictures and ccommentary coming.

Offline rich pierce

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Re: A group of related smoothbore guns attributed to New England
« Reply #7 on: June 11, 2025, 03:51:08 AM »
Today I got to handle another gun made by the same shop or maker. It is a club butt fowler with a pre-Land pattern lock. The lock was very long and as with the others shown above, the brass side plate matched the lock dimensions closely while retaining a similar profile to the other side plates shown. In addition the forward thimbles were not pinned, but fastened by folding extended tabs inside the barrel channel. The sleek groove in the fore-end adjacent to the ramrod groove is the same as on CB-6.

I think these guns were built in a colonial to Federal period chop-shop producing club butt and other styles, utilizing a variety of recycled locks and barrels, and their signature guards, side plates, and certain fore-end architectural details. Club butt fowler/muskets were likely the bulk of their production.

I don’t have permission to post photos of the gun I handled today online, which I respect and do not resent whatsoever. In time this particular collection will be illustrated online. Meanwhile I’m feeling like carrying on the chop shop operation, relocated to Vermont from wherever in coastal New England the original shop was located.

Clearly I cannot sketch.


« Last Edit: June 11, 2025, 04:10:01 AM by rich pierce »
Andover, Vermont

Offline Brokennock

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Re: A group of related smoothbore guns attributed to New England
« Reply #8 on: June 11, 2025, 03:59:07 AM »
Today I got to handle another gun made by the same shop or maker. It is a club butt fowler with a pre-Land pattern lock. The lock was very long and as with the others shown above, the brass side plate matched the lock dimensions closely while retaining a similar profile to the other side plates shown. In addition the forward thimbles were not pinned, but fastened by folding extended tabs inside the barrel channel. The sleek groove in the fore-end adjacent to the ramrod groove is the same as on CB-6.

I think these guns were built in a colonial to Federal period chop-shop producing club butt and other styles, utilizing a variety of recycled locks and barrels, and their signature guards, side plates, and certain fore-end architectural details. Club butt fowler/muskets were likely the bulk of their production.

I don’t have permission to post photos of the gun I handled today online, which I respect and do not resent whatsoever. In time this particular collection will be illustrated online. Meanwhile I’m feeling like carrying on the chop shop operation, relocated to Vermont from wherever in coastal New England the original shop was located.

Thank you. I enjoyed this update.
👍

Offline smart dog

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Re: A group of related smoothbore guns attributed to New England
« Reply #9 on: June 11, 2025, 01:32:11 PM »
Hi Rich,
The inletting on CB-6 is much better than you find on most colonial and early American guns.  It is on par with much English work.  The maker knew his business. Your photo of the lock mortise confirms without any doubt the current lock on the gun is a replacement.  Look at the inlet for the sear spring.  The screw is tucked right up to the bridle indicating a long sear spring.  The original lock would only show the sear screw behind the cock not not two like the current lock shows.  Moreover, I believe the original lock was English with a military connection. 

dave
« Last Edit: June 11, 2025, 01:46:15 PM by smart dog »
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Offline rich pierce

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Re: A group of related smoothbore guns attributed to New England
« Reply #10 on: June 11, 2025, 03:11:35 PM »
Good detective work, Dave! It’s hard to say when this gun was made and now we can’t use the lock to help us. As I mentioned above, despite the quality of work the builder or shop seems to have relied a lot on recycled parts. Yankee frugality!
Andover, Vermont

Offline silky

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Re: A group of related smoothbore guns attributed to New England
« Reply #11 on: June 12, 2025, 08:08:24 PM »
To my amateur eye, Gun #3’s buttstock architecture looks more Dutch/Hudson Valley than the traditional New England Club Butt. The smoother, less dramatic curve in the butt behind the trigger guard is what I mean. That and the deeper curve in the butt plate.

I’m not arguing it’s not New England; just interested to see one that looks less clubbish!
Tom Silkowski

Offline JV Puleo

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Re: A group of related smoothbore guns attributed to New England
« Reply #12 on: June 16, 2025, 03:49:33 AM »
I've had two club butts with that concave forend treatment. Both came out of the woodwork in the East Greenwich, RI area. Neither was marked with a name. Of the two, one was fairly plain while the other featured a very nice carved shell around the tang and a silver escutcheon with initials. Both had been converted indication a long service life. The plainer one was mounted with reused British land pattern furniture.

Offline rich pierce

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Re: A group of related smoothbore guns attributed to New England
« Reply #13 on: June 16, 2025, 04:02:47 AM »
I've had two club butts with that concave forend treatment. Both came out of the woodwork in the East Greenwich, RI area. Neither was marked with a name. Of the two, one was fairly plain while the other featured a very nice carved shell around the tang and a silver escutcheon with initials. Both had been converted indication a long service life. The plainer one was mounted with reused British land pattern furniture.
Great! Any pictures? Do you remember if the thimbles were pinned?  Several I’ve seen had the thimbles folded into the barrel channel. Either have the nosecap flush to the barrel like CB-6?
Andover, Vermont

Offline rich pierce

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Re: A group of related smoothbore guns attributed to New England
« Reply #14 on: June 17, 2025, 07:29:06 PM »
The gun I recently photographed and handled and propose has been published in Of Sorts For Provincials by Jim Mullins. It’s on pages 85-88 and is identified as a Buccaneer musket from the Tulle arsenal by the author. I think it’s related to CB-6 in the Flintlock Fowlers book by Grinslade’s, sharing these features:
Side plate shape mirrors the lock plate shape
Trigger guard is the same
Concave shaping of the fore end near the ramrod groove is identical
Front thimbles are not pinned but likely have tabs folded into the barrel channel as CB-6 does.

Now - could it be made by the colonial gunsmith who made CB-6?  Not if it’s a French gun.

Reasons to think it was restocked here:
It doesn’t look like walnut. Looks like maple to me in pictures and when I handled it.
It has so many architectural similarities and details that suggest it’s linked to these colonial gunsmith I propose are related to each other. It does not have the nosecap which most of the other guns have.

If it is a buccaneer musket made in France, the guard, wrist architecture, and fore end shaping of the group of related guns were copied by the maker of the colonial gunsmith, or from a buccaneer musket very much like this one.

If you have “Of Sorts” by Jim Mullins, do you think the buccaneer on pages 85-88 was stocked in France? I’ve not seen Tulle and related French dualism with wood like this unless restocked here.
Andover, Vermont

Offline backsplash75

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Re: A group of related smoothbore guns attributed to New England
« Reply #15 on: June 18, 2025, 12:12:13 AM »
The gun I recently photographed and handled and propose has been published in Of Sorts For Provincials by Jim Mullins. It’s on pages 85-88 and is identified as a Buccaneer musket from the Tulle arsenal by the author. I think it’s related to CB-6 in the Flintlock Fowlers book by Grinslade’s, sharing these features:
Side plate shape mirrors the lock plate shape
Trigger guard is the same
Concave shaping of the fore end near the ramrod groove is identical
Front thimbles are not pinned but likely have tabs folded into the barrel channel as CB-6 does.

Now - could it be made by the colonial gunsmith who made CB-6?  Not if it’s a French gun.

Reasons to think it was restocked here:
It doesn’t look like walnut. Looks like maple to me in pictures and when I handled it.
It has so many architectural similarities and details that suggest it’s linked to these colonial gunsmith I propose are related to each other. It does not have the nosecap which most of the other guns have.

If it is a buccaneer musket made in France, the guard, wrist architecture, and fore end shaping of the group of related guns were copied by the maker of the colonial gunsmith, or from a buccaneer musket very much like this one.

If you have “Of Sorts” by Jim Mullins, do you think the buccaneer on pages 85-88 was stocked in France? I’ve not seen Tulle and related French dualism with wood like this unless restocked here.

Rich,
You make some very valid points, and I think the carved "beaver tail" behind the breech plug tang screams Anglo origins for the stocking of earlier French buccaneer (or demi buccaneer) parts. That book was published in 2008 and a LOT of new ground has been covered on both French and British buccaneer guns since then. Maine historical has a great buccaneer gun from St Etienne that has a sideplate (Signed on the sideplate too) that is more refined but may have been the inspiration for the American ones above (see Gladysz French Trade gun in NA p53).



https://mainehistory.catalogaccess.com/objects/3022
« Last Edit: June 18, 2025, 04:03:48 AM by backsplash75 »

Offline JV Puleo

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Re: A group of related smoothbore guns attributed to New England
« Reply #16 on: June 18, 2025, 04:45:11 PM »
I've had two club butts with that concave forend treatment. Both came out of the woodwork in the East Greenwich, RI area. Neither was marked with a name. Of the two, one was fairly plain while the other featured a very nice carved shell around the tang and a silver escutcheon with initials. Both had been converted indication a long service life. The plainer one was mounted with reused British land pattern furniture.
Great! Any pictures? Do you remember if the thimbles were pinned?  Several I’ve seen had the thimbles folded into the barrel channel. Either have the nosecap flush to the barrel like CB-6?

I'm sorry, I don't have pictures. I had them long before the advent of the cell phone and before I owned a digital camera. I can say that in both cases the thimbles were pinned. I don't remember the nose caps but I'm certain neither was "long" like that illustrated. I, very tentatively, thought it possible they were made by Jeremiah Sheffield, a known gunmaker of the Revolutionary War period. No positively identified Sheffield gun is known to exist but in both cases these guns came from local junk shops in the E. Greenwich area. That is where Sheffield lived and it certainly looked as if both came from the same shop. EG is on the waterfront and both guns would have been appropriate for shooting waterfowl. I think at least one of them had been fitted with a bayonet lug as well. We know Sheffield was a gunmaker because he is mentioned as such in the official records of the period.

Offline rich pierce

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Re: A group of related smoothbore guns attributed to New England
« Reply #17 on: June 18, 2025, 04:54:12 PM »
Thanks, guys!
Andover, Vermont

Offline debnal

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Re: A group of related smoothbore guns attributed to New England
« Reply #18 on: June 19, 2025, 11:17:57 PM »
The mentioning of East Greewich brought back fond memories for me. My family moved there in 1960. I was about 12 and remember going into an antique shop and seeing four or five long fowlers on the wall. That is the first time I remember ever seeing antique guns. Now, 65 years later, I have a wall full of them.
Al

Offline JV Puleo

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Re: A group of related smoothbore guns attributed to New England
« Reply #19 on: June 20, 2025, 04:24:11 AM »
There was a lot of waterfowling in that area, more before many of the coastal marshes were filled to make "water front" property. Years ago a friend of mine told me how he met a local man in the hardware store buying black powder (this was in the late 40s)...the gentleman showed him his gun, one that his father had used before him. It was a Patterson Colt revolving shotgun!

Offline 5judge

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Re: A group of related smoothbore guns attributed to New England
« Reply #20 on: July 05, 2025, 12:42:21 PM »
Hesitant to chime in knowing my limitations, but the piece with a military style iron rammer also appears to have a bayonet lug under the barrel, with stock cut back to ship a bayonet. Interesting as we enter our sestercentennial...

Offline rich pierce

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Re: A group of related smoothbore guns attributed to New England
« Reply #21 on: July 05, 2025, 03:07:07 PM »
Hesitant to chime in knowing my limitations, but the piece with a military style iron rammer also appears to have a bayonet lug under the barrel, with stock cut back to ship a bayonet. Interesting as we enter our sestercentennial...

Good observation!
Andover, Vermont

Offline rich pierce

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Re: A group of related smoothbore guns attributed to New England
« Reply #22 on: August 13, 2025, 03:33:14 AM »
Found another candidate for possibly related to the above guns. Hallmarks: side plate matches the lock plate and this musket has the unusual nosecap.













Andover, Vermont

Online Robert Wolfe

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Re: A group of related smoothbore guns attributed to New England
« Reply #23 on: August 19, 2025, 05:03:05 PM »
Nice!
Robert Wolfe
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Offline Avlrc

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Re: A group of related smoothbore guns attributed to New England
« Reply #24 on: August 19, 2025, 05:18:52 PM »
Yeah, I was watching that gun at auction and was trying to figure out where I had seen that unique nosecap. Good info.