Author Topic: Pine Tar and Linseed Oil  (Read 18084 times)

Offline MKemper

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Pine Tar and Linseed Oil
« on: August 20, 2008, 10:07:07 PM »
As many of you know, Wallace uses a mixture of Pine Tar and Linseed Oil to finish his stocks.  This solution does not raise the grain which is obviously advantageous with fine carving like we see on his work.  My question:  What is the best way to add coloration to this mixture.  Without the addition of pigment, the finish is very blond in appearance.  This is fine and certainly accentuates the shadow lines in fine carving.  I am looking for a traditional deep reddish-brown.  Any tricks?

Offline Curt Larsen

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Re: Pine Tar and Linseed Oil
« Reply #1 on: August 20, 2008, 10:45:19 PM »
I think Wallace uses the pine tar/linseed finish as his final seal coat.  I used to use pine tar on my old wood cross country skis when I lived in snow country and yes the pine tar lets the natural color of the wood come through.  My sense is that Wallace would use aqua fortis as his coloring agent and use the seal coat of pine tar and linseed on top of it.  The pine tar would really contrast fine carving and besides it smells pretty nice.  I generally use a final seal coat of equal parts of spar varnish, thickened linseed and turpentine once I get the colors I am looking for.  I might try the pine tar trick one of these days though.
Curt


Offline Tim Crosby

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Re: Pine Tar and Linseed Oil
« Reply #2 on: August 21, 2008, 12:06:01 AM »
 Ok, I gotta ask...what is pine tar...pine sap?

Tim C.

Offline MKemper

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Re: Pine Tar and Linseed Oil
« Reply #3 on: August 21, 2008, 12:10:47 AM »
Curt, I picked up Pioneer Video's Relief Carving by Wallace Gusler at the CLA show.  I thoroughly enjoyed the video as is shows Wallace carefully carving, scraping, etc. to a final finish (no SP).  Wallace did not use any stain or aqua fortis prior to applying the mixture of Pine Tar and Linseed Oil.  He simply brushed it on the white stock.  Thus, he ended with one of his "signature" blond rifles.  I too use a final finish of spar varnish, boiled linseed oil and turpentine and have found this to be a great finish for years.  

Offline JTR

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Re: Pine Tar and Linseed Oil
« Reply #4 on: August 21, 2008, 01:35:32 AM »
Just a guess, but I’ll bet that any of the Laurel Mountain Forge stains will mix right in with that concoction.

John
John Robbins

California Kid

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Re: Pine Tar and Linseed Oil
« Reply #5 on: August 21, 2008, 01:52:11 AM »
You could stain with LMF, aqua fortis, or probably what ever stain you wanted to use and put the pine tar-
linseed oil mixture over that. He still raises the grain before puttin on any thing as far as I know.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2008, 01:54:29 AM by California Kid »

Offline David Rase

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Re: Pine Tar and Linseed Oil
« Reply #6 on: August 21, 2008, 02:05:32 AM »
A lot of the artist oil colors are linseed oil based.  Get a tube of your desired color and mix some in with your pine tar and linseed oil.  That is what I did when I went through that phase after watching Wallace's video.
DMR

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Re: Pine Tar and Linseed Oil
« Reply #7 on: August 21, 2008, 02:23:36 AM »
Dave,
Good idea, but I don't like using LO as a finish anyway.
I'm working on the fowler you did the barrel inlet on right now. Took a while to get to it.
Got a new rice barrel I havn't gotten a piece of wood for yet. Going to be a Maryland gun, probably Christian Hawken.

Offline Dennis Glazener

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Re: Pine Tar and Linseed Oil
« Reply #8 on: August 21, 2008, 03:33:53 AM »
Quote
Ok, I gotta ask...what is pine tar...pine sap?

Tim C.
Pine tar
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Pine tar is a sticky material produced by the high temperature carbonization of pine wood in anoxic conditions (dry distillation or destructive distillation). The wood is rapidly decomposed by applying heat and pressure in a closed container; the primary resulting products are charcoal and pine tar.

Pine tar consists primarily of aromatic hydrocarbons, tar acids and tar bases. Components of tar vary according to the pyrolytic process (e.g. method, duration, temperature) and origin of the wood (e.g. age of pine trees, type of soil and moisture conditions during tree growth). The choice of wood, design of kiln, burning and collection of the tar can vary. Only pine stumps and roots are used in the traditional production of pine tar.

Pine tar has a long history as a wood preservative, as a wood sealant for maritime use, in soaps, in roofing construction and maintenance, and in the treatment of skin diseases.
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tg

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Re: Pine Tar and Linseed Oil
« Reply #9 on: August 21, 2008, 03:39:45 AM »
"I too use a final finish of spar varnish, boiled linseed oil and turpentine and have found this to be a great finish for years.  "

I have used this finish over several types of stains with good results, on a couple of guns I used asphalt mixed with turp to get a very dark color before  applying the finish.

Offline Stophel

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Re: Pine Tar and Linseed Oil
« Reply #10 on: August 21, 2008, 04:19:34 AM »
[Pine tar has a long history as a wood preservative, as a wood sealant for maritime use, in soaps, in roofing construction and maintenance, and in the treatment of skin diseases.

But perhaps not as a gunstock finish...

 ;D
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PINYONE

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Re: Pine Tar and Linseed Oil
« Reply #11 on: August 21, 2008, 08:18:53 PM »
Hey Fellers, the finish Wallace uses has several thoughts behind it- 1 is when it is dry it has become very water resistant. 2- when doing his incredible wire inlay, the pine tar hardens and becomes a bonding agent, sealer over the wire- as for then stain he uses the most- he keeps tea Bags in a bucket and never drains it- when he stains the stock- while he is working on it he is constently rubbing the tea bags into it- then when it is finished- he uses the pine tar oil over the tea stain. The tea gives it that deep amber- golden color.' and will darken with time.  Pinyon

Offline Dphariss

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Re: Pine Tar and Linseed Oil
« Reply #12 on: August 21, 2008, 08:46:00 PM »
As many of you know, Wallace uses a mixture of Pine Tar and Linseed Oil to finish his stocks.  This solution does not raise the grain which is obviously advantageous with fine carving like we see on his work.  My question:  What is the best way to add coloration to this mixture.  Without the addition of pigment, the finish is very blond in appearance.  This is fine and certainly accentuates the shadow lines in fine carving.  I am looking for a traditional deep reddish-brown.  Any tricks?

You cannot get what you want with synthetics without a lot of work.
I know the finish you speak of and frankly, with all due respect, I believe that Mr Gusler cares little about the finish he uses in his desire to maintain crisp carving.
To me proper finish is as important as the rest of the rifle if the maker expects it to look right.
http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=773.0
Shows a rifle stained with AF well depleted with iron, but still fairly acid, after having the grain raised several times with water
I use several methods to repolish to carving one was a fairly stiff natural fiber brush with and  without rottenstone (used a mask).
It was then stained twice with AF then neutralized. I used home cooked oil with Grumbachers Oil Painting medium III and a little aged turp as a seal coat and that is all that is on it in the photos. I generally use just oil and turp but this peice of wood had some flakey areas and I added some Grumbachers to make the seal coat a little harder.
I put on another coat of just oil since. I would show a pic of the brush but I am 2500 miles from the shop right now. I think it was something he used while working as a photo engraver years ago. Stiff fine bristles. Looks like your typical welders wire brush in design. Just smaller. IIRC the bristles are Sisal.
I have a fairly stiff tooth brush that seems to work fairly well.
I would also point out that furniture finish and musical instrument finishes are not usually the best for a firearm. Neither see much use in bad weather.
Dan
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Offline flintriflesmith

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Re: Pine Tar and Linseed Oil
« Reply #13 on: August 21, 2008, 10:30:30 PM »
Just to help clarify this topic--there are two different Gusler rifles being discussed in this thread and they were stained and finished differently.

The rifle in the American Pioneer Video on relief carving is the one with the pine tar and turp finish on basically unstained wood. Wallace was not able to get as dark a color as he wanted because the commercial pine tar was very light. He later added a pigmented bees wax applied hot. The pine tar made it hard to get the wax to penetrate but it did. That finish has darked a bit more over time and it was on Jim Wright's table at the CLA last weekend. Some of you probably saw it.

The tea stain was used on the wire inlaid rifle in part because he had to wet the wood anyway after each piece of wire was added. The gun was getting dirty from all the handling and Wallace decided to go ahead with a very weak stain that could be built up over a long period. In addition to the tea bags there were iron filings in the water. After the wire work and before the carving Wallace applied a brown earth pigmnet in linseed oil. When the carving was sculpted this rifle had a final stain of a reder pigment in linseed oil and a top coat of hot beeswax.

Gary
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Offline Tim Crosby

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Re: Pine Tar and Linseed Oil
« Reply #14 on: August 21, 2008, 10:35:12 PM »
[http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=773.0

Dan,
I don't know how but I managed to miss the original post of this rifle, it is beautiful,

And Taylor....that patch box is outstanding, I need to back up and see what else I missed.

Tim C.

 
« Last Edit: August 21, 2008, 10:37:42 PM by Tim Crosby »

PINYONE

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Re: Pine Tar and Linseed Oil
« Reply #15 on: August 22, 2008, 03:44:59 PM »
Well I guess we can take Gary's word to the Bank- the Rifle Builders at CWF Shop have got all the good trade secrets. In my estimation the early work by Wallace- Gary and John is my favorite, let me not leave John Bivins out. John told me that in the early days he would drive to Wallaces from N.C. like driving across town in his old VW. I really envy Wallace and Garys early adventure in Salem with Duck before they came to Williamsburg. I hope that the 3 early shop Riflesmith keep it up, there is much great art hiding in their hands yet. Next time I am at W. Guslers I am going to get him to bring me over to Garys, ready or not- I know it will be worth the visit. The Great Pinyone

Offline Eric Kettenburg

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Re: Pine Tar and Linseed Oil
« Reply #16 on: August 23, 2008, 04:09:09 AM »
I have to spout a bit.  I hate pine tar.  Nasty, sticky gunk.  There is no way, no how, I believe that any professional (key word there is professional) gunstocker would have used it in conjunction with a gunstock finish.  Was it perhaps used in a 'frontier' context, on cheap hack pieces, on one-offs built by non-professionals?  Maybe.  Who can know, especially given the near-universal refinishing of practically everything that has survived.  By and large, on the pieces I have examined which *seem* to be possessive of some form of original finish, nearly everything looks to have been stained with aquafortis.  It's such a unique color and there is absolutely no means to obtain the same depth and clrity of color, let alone the particular color tone, with a pigmented or non-chemically derived stain.  Pigmets only serve to cloud your grain unless - in the case of some fine artists oils - the pigments are ground to an excrutiatingly fine particle size.  These art oils are what you see on some Lehigh area pieces with wild reds and oranges and yellow 'violin' varnishes.  Spirit resins can also yield such vivid colors and also are seen on 19th century work but are quite fragile.  On the light 'blonde' pieces (or pieces which may have originally been blonde) I do not believe pine tar plays any part in the color.  A good lead-boiled oil can color the white maple a beautiful light amber color by itself:  I proved this two years ago at the Gunmakers' Fair during a seminar wherein I 'stained' plain and curly sugar maple pieces with historically-influenced linseed oil.  It was actually darker than Wallace's pine tar/oil.  If some form of coniferous resins were utilized in conjunction with the oils, and I'm sure many were especially given their easy availabilty throughout the 18th century via imports, the key word here is 'resin.'  Crude pine tar is very unrefined and possessive of many of the aforementioned hydrocarbons and 'tars' and pinenes which, through age and refinement, can evaporate or otherwise be driven off to yield harder, more useful resins.  Venetian turpentine, for example, was historically derived from the Euro larch and was sold not as the gloppy gunky $#@* you buy at most art supplies today (most of them being synthetic anyway) but was described as being near-crystalline and deep burgundy in color.  A fine resin to be heated and boiled into linseed oil.  Copals can be run at high temp and combined w/ boiling oil.  Many other resins can also, all which can influence color tone and durability and will NOT retain the sticky characteristics of crude pine tar.  The so-called problems anticipated by using aquafortis in conjucntion with fine carving are largely rendered minimal by the use of extremely charp tools and avoiding abrasives such as sandpaper at all cost PRIOR to applying initial sealing coats.  RCA42 is aquafortis stained isn't it?  I think that qualifies as fine carving!  That dude didn't seem to have a problem using it.  The use of tea is a very good notion as tannic acid in varying forms by itself will darken the shade of the wood, and in conjunction with aquafortis (subsequent wash coats) will accentuate and darken the curl and color.  Now don;t get all huffy and interpret this as an attack on anyone.  I don;t care what anyone uses to finish their stock.  I just really, really hate pine tar.
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Re: Pine Tar and Linseed Oil
« Reply #17 on: August 23, 2008, 05:32:57 PM »
Okay Eric has vented his thoughts on the subject and I might add has alot of good popints as usuall and a way with words which leads me to a point I brought up on the other old Forum- It is time for "Eric to write a Book on North Hampton/ Lehigh Rifles". If any of you others agree sound off- The Great Pinyone

Offline rich pierce

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Re: Pine Tar and Linseed Oil
« Reply #18 on: August 25, 2008, 03:21:52 PM »
EK's website articles are valuable resources, for sure.  I hope they are preserved.  When things are printed, they last forever.
Andover, Vermont

Offline t.caster

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Re: Pine Tar and Linseed Oil
« Reply #19 on: August 25, 2008, 07:44:55 PM »
Wait a minute, did you say tea? Have you experimented with different teas after initial aqua-fortis? Hmmmmm!
Tom C.

Offline Stophel

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Re: Pine Tar and Linseed Oil
« Reply #20 on: August 25, 2008, 09:29:53 PM »
Here's the result of just washing sugar maple with a lye solution:




It makes a most wonderful light golden brown color.  This blank was just stained and had some shellac quickly slapped on it.  "Black oil"/"Red oil" would give it even more of a deep golden brown color.  Now, it doesn't seem to work on all pieces of maple.  Just depends upon the chemistry of the particular piece of wood you have.  I tried this on four different sugar maple blanks, and on three of them, I got similar colors.  On one, I got nothing.  I have the "perfect rifle" planned for this stock blank, and it's going to be finished this way.
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Re: Pine Tar and Linseed Oil
« Reply #21 on: November 13, 2008, 05:49:28 AM »
Pine Tar rocks! Use it like oil over your stock after finish. Great for military muskets.
1 part pine tar
1 part linseed oil
dab of japan dryer
Dont use pine tar from farm supply stores, not the right stuff
I use it for everything when boatbuilding, got a 5 gallon bucket to soak stuff in, smells great.
heat it up and soak balls of hemp in it to waterproof.

Offline Mad Monk

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Re: Pine Tar and Linseed Oil
« Reply #22 on: November 13, 2008, 06:17:38 AM »
Wait a minute, did you say tea? Have you experimented with different teas after initial aqua-fortis? Hmmmmm!

There is some tannic acid in the tea.  When the tannic acid comes in contact with iron it forms an iron tannate "complex" that varies in color from a brownish black to a dark black.
The common writing ink up until the Civil War, with the introduction of steel pen points, was a mixture of ferrous sulfate and tannic or gallic acid.

I used to extract tannic acid from oak bark in boiling water.  But too concentrated and you can end up with a stock that looks like curly charcoal.

But the combination of nitrate of iron and a tannic acid wash before staining can bring out curl in a piece of wood that looks as if there is no curl.

This combination may also be used on stock blanks that have brown streaks or patches natural in the wood.

Offline Mad Monk

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Re: Pine Tar and Linseed Oil
« Reply #23 on: November 13, 2008, 06:25:20 AM »
Well I guess we can take Gary's word to the Bank- the Rifle Builders at CWF Shop have got all the good trade secrets. In my estimation the early work by Wallace- Gary and John is my favorite, let me not leave John Bivins out. John told me that in the early days he would drive to Wallaces from N.C. like driving across town in his old VW. I really envy Wallace and Garys early adventure in Salem with Duck before they came to Williamsburg. I hope that the 3 early shop Riflesmith keep it up, there is much great art hiding in their hands yet. Next time I am at W. Guslers I am going to get him to bring me over to Garys, ready or not- I know it will be worth the visit. The Great Pinyone

Actually they did little research on the subject.
It was claimed that most of the old rifles we admire had been stained with organic dyes and then finished with spirit varnishes.
That runs against everything to be considered sound technology of the day.
Spirit varnishes were used on items that would not go outside.  Anything that saw outside use would be finished with an oil-based varnish using one or more of a number of natural resins.

Rosin made from pine pitch was used only in cheap varnishes noted for not being durable.  Ditto on the damar resin varnishes.  If you wanted a top notch varnish you went with a copal resin.  A somewhat flexible varnish was prepared with boiled oil and sandarac resin.  Sometimes with a bit of gum mastic aded.  This varnish went back to the days of cross-bows according to old Italian sources.

If rosin was out of the picture for a good varnish then pine tar would have been even lower on the scale.

Offline Kermit

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Re: Pine Tar and Linseed Oil
« Reply #24 on: November 13, 2008, 06:49:46 AM »
First off, if it's just labeled "pine tar," I'd stay away from it. Building traditional boats, I use Stochlolm Tar, and I get it here:

http://www.tarsmell.com/tar.html

I mix up a concoction sometimes called "boat soup" or "boat sauce." It's like this:

Equal parts:
Stockholm tar
boiled linseed oil (NEVER the raw stuff!)
turpentine (NEVER mineral spirits! And don't leave out this thinner.)
-----a little Japan drier if you want it to kick off faster

Some boatbuilders have pet substitutions, but this mix is pretty traditional. One secret is that the stuff needs ultraviolet to kick off and harden right. Put it in the sun, turning occasionally, and in a day or three it will lose its sticky. I've used it on all sorts of exterior wood, and love the stuff. It'll dry with a low varnish-like shine, or you can rub down the gloss.

One word of warning: the stuff will eventually darken A LOT. I've got a lapstrake skiff that has been treated with sauce on the interior, lived in the sun for years, and it's near to black. If you want to use it on a stock, try it and see how you like it. But give it a time to darken and harden before you decide to forget it. BTW, I've never tried it on any hardwood, only softwoods in marine use.
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