Ed. Kollar Fullstock Flintlock Hawken

[BigSkyRambler]

I recently acquired a couple of rifles from the collection of the late Dr. Edward (Ed) Kollar of Taos, NM. One, I think, might of particular interest to this forum, as it MAY hold clues to a discussion about flintlock Hawken rifles on this forum in 2020. One post included this:
"There was another candidate for a flint Hawken presented in a Buckskin Report article back in October 1979 by Edward S. Kollar.  Unfortunately, it was destroyed in a house fire before it could be examined by experts and is still a big question mark today."
The rifle in my possession has a 38.25" .50 barrel stamped GUN MAKER P. SANDERS MONTANA TERR. 82. Lock stamped P.L.S. inside. Dr. Kollar electropenciled information on buttplate indicating it was a copy of an early J&S Hawken ca. 1825. Is it conceivable that this rifle replicates the one examined by Dr. Kollar for the 79 Buckskin Report article? Expiring minds want to know.

[rich pierce]

I’d like to see the breech tang.

[BigSkyRambler]

I’d like to see the breech tang.

Here ya go.

[rich pierce]

Thanks!

[SDH]

I'm pretty sure your Hawken was built by Phil "Blue Jacket" Sanders who I visited in the Bitterroot Valley, MT about the time your rifle was built. I also visited with Monte Mandarino in Kalispell on the same trip. If you search this forum for Phil Sanders you will find lots of info. I believe he currently lives in Alaska. Sanders specialized in Fur Trade rifle particularly authentic Hawken rifles.

[BigSkyRambler]

I'm pretty sure your Hawken was built by Phil "Blue Jacket" Sanders who I visited in the Bitterroot Valley, MT about the time your rifle was built. I also visited with Monte Mandarino in Kalispell on the same trip. If you search this forum for Phil Sanders you will find lots of info. I believe he currently lives in Alaska. Sanders specialized in Fur Trade rifle particularly authentic Hawken rifles.

Any thoughts on the rifle? I need a copy of that issue of Buckskin Report.

[rich pierce]

We have a contemporary gun purportedly based on a gun that was never photographed before it burned in a fire. And we don’t have the metal from the original, after the fire. No buttplate, barrel, guard, or buttplate.

I don’t recall the article, though I saved many Buckskin Report articles on the early Hawken rifles. Given that the vast majority of speculative discussions on flintlock St. Louis Hawken rifles don’t mention the rifle this contemporary rifle is purported to be modeled after, I guess it’s a “could be” situation in most folks eyes. Plausible? Sure. Possible? Yes. Real data? Not so much. I would have thought that Dingelhofer would have latched onto that one like a lamprey on a fish.

I don’t doubt some flintlock rifles were made by J&S Hawken in St. Louis. Several may have been “going west” guns and others may have been local squirrel rifles. It’s not hard to build a plausible J&S Hawken flintlock rifle. The one you’re showing is a good approximation of what we think might be “right”.  The grease hole is unexpected.

[BigSkyRambler]

Appreciate all the input. Just trying to build a picture of what was in the builder's mind, not affirmation of what actuallywas. Maybe I can track down Sanders. Hope everyone had a great Thanksgiving.

[Daniel Coats]

Blue Jacket died years ago but I'm sure he knows all the Hawken secrets now.

[BigSkyRambler]

Blue Jacket died years ago but I'm sure he knows all the Hawken secrets now.

Well, dang!

[BigSkyRambler]

Is the stamp on breech a proprietary mark of Sanders?

[Mtn Meek]

Here is the article for the October 1979 Buckskin Report by Edward S. Koller.  It was a short article being only two pages with photographs.

Is the stamp on breech a proprietary mark of Sanders?

Yes it is.

I suspect that Bluejacket was the major influence that started the GRRW smiths to start marking the rifles they stocked with their maker's mark.  BlueJacket worked at GRRW in 1974 and probably some or all of 1975.  Prior to 1974, the makers did not mark the rifles that they stocked with a maker's mark.  By the end of 1974, they all were using a maker's mark.

Here are a few photos of Bluejacket at work and play at the Green River Rifle Shop.









The photo above shows many, though not all, of the GRRW hands from circa 1975.  Bluejacket is in the front row on the viewers left.  He is holding an unfinished NW trade gun.

The Book of Buckskinning III shows another copy of the Koller Hawken made by Fred Johnson.  Here is a quote from that piece.

During this time his [Fred Johnson's] passion for Western fur trade history grew and his interest in muzzle loading firearms expanded.  With the arrival in the Bitterroots of Phil "Bluejacket" Sanders in 1976 and Ron Paull [another former GRRW smith] in 1977, both execellent rifle builders, Fred's interest in gun building began to take serious root.  Their influence had a tremendous effect on him and he stared riflesmithing with Ron Paull in 1978, eventually going full time with Bluejacket in 1981.

[rich pierce]

Phil, thanks for the article!  Being a skeptic, I wonder if it’s possible they used an old flint barrel and converted it to percussion to build this gun, or if it was built by them as flint, and the local owner returned it to be “percussed”.  Either way the ones that are unique - guard, guard attachment, and lock bolt inlays, as well as brazed on bolster in this case - are really cool and must be quite early.

[BigSkyRambler]

Phil, thanks for the article!  Being a skeptic, I wonder if it’s possible they used an old flint barrel and converted it to percussion to build this gun, or if it was built by them as flint, and the local owner returned it to be “percussed”.  Either way the ones that are unique - guard, guard attachment, and lock bolt inlays, as well as brazed on bolster in this case - are really cool and must be quite early.

Examining Kollar's rifle, it is a copy in almost every detail to the original, save being extrapolated back to flint.  It is also 1:60 twist, rather than 1:48 in original. I am sure the Hawken brothers repurposed older flintlock barrels in The Earlies. So to quote Mr. Nightlinger in The Cowboys: If it isn't true, it ought to be. In any event, the rifle represents an important phase in contemporary muzzleloader building, with a clear Genesis and a solid pedigree.

[Mtn Meek]

Phil, thanks for the article!  Being a skeptic, I wonder if it’s possible they used an old flint barrel and converted it to percussion to build this gun, or if it was built by them as flint, and the local owner returned it to be “percussed”.  Either way the ones that are unique - guard, guard attachment, and lock bolt inlays, as well as brazed on bolster in this case - are really cool and must be quite early.

Rich, anything is possible.  Unfortunately, we can only make guesses about this rifle since all we have are the pictures of it from Kollar's article.  I think it is wise to be skeptical.  I find it interesting that Kollar did not include a picture of the "J&S Hawken, St. Louis" stamp on the barrel.

As you probably know, some other early J&S Hawken rifles such as the Peterson J&S Hawken, the J&S Hawken rifle in the Montana Historical Society collection, and the GW Atchison J&S Hawken do not have the "St. Louis" address included with the name.  I'm not sure what significance to make of this, but I would have thought that if they had the "St. Louis" stamp early, they would have used it as they consistently did later on.

I don't recall anybody else writing about examining or even seeing the Kollar J&S Hawken before it was lost in the fire, therefore we don't have any other observations to go by.

BigSkyRamble, I do agree that the Phil Sanders copy of the Kollar rifle is a special rifle.  Now that I know it exists, it is obviously connected to the Fred Johnson copy as Fred had probably befriended Phil Sanders at the time that Sanders was making that particular rifle.

If you are interested, here is a scan from The Book of Buckskinning III of the Fred Johnson piece.

[rich pierce]

Phil, thanks- great pictures. Now I see the grease hole. Seems several people were convinced it was a real deal J&S Hawken. This re-creation is very attractive.

[BigSkyRambler]

Phil, thanks for the article!  Being a skeptic, I wonder if it’s possible they used an old flint barrel and converted it to percussion to build this gun, or if it was built by them as flint, and the local owner returned it to be “percussed”.  Either way the ones that are unique - guard, guard attachment, and lock bolt inlays, as well as brazed on bolster in this case - are really cool and must be quite early.

Rich, anything is possible.  Unfortunately, we can only make guesses about this rifle since all we have are the pictures of it from Kollar's article.  I think it is wise to be skeptical.  I find it interesting that Kollar did not include a picture of the "J&S Hawken, St. Louis" stamp on the barrel.

As you probably know, some other early J&S Hawken rifles such as the Peterson J&S Hawken, the J&S Hawken rifle in the Montana Historical Society collection, and the GW Atchison J&S Hawken do not have the "St. Louis" address included with the name.  I'm not sure what significance to make of this, but I would have thought that if they had the "St. Louis" stamp early, they would have used it as they consistently did later on.

I don't recall anybody else writing about examining or even seeing the Kollar J&S Hawken before it was lost in the fire, therefore we don't have any other observations to go by.

BigSkyRamble, I do agree that the Phil Sanders copy of the Kollar rifle is a special rifle.  Now that I know it exists, it is obviously connected to the Fred Johnson copy as Fred had probably befriended Phil Sanders at the time that Sanders was making that particular rifle.

If you are interested, here is a scan from The Book of Buckskinning III of the Fred Johnson piece.

Great article.  I really like how a number of well known artisans came into contact with the rifle.  Not that any of it proves anything beyond a shadow of a doubt, but intriguing, no less.  I may just keep this one.

[rich pierce]

It sure looks like a keeper!

[BigSkyRambler]

It sure looks like a keeper!

Gonna have to build up some strength in my left arm.  Been shooting a light swamped barrel .54 at just 8 lbs.

[moseswhite]

Mr.Kollar lost 2 hawkens to fire , one fullstock and one half stock which he had Don Stith restock the half stock and it burned up again. So he got paid very well from his insurance company twice . The reason the fullstock was not restored is he didn't want to pay anything to have it restored . Don gave it back to him after Kollar complained about the $2,500 Don charged him to restore the half stock. I saw both of them in there burnt state and there were a lot of things that weren't quite right so Keith Neubauer and Don Stith and I all concluded they were both fake .

[BigSkyRambler]

There appears to be several opinions from respected builders, some among The Departed. As my old Mainer buddy used to say, "Hard tellin', not knowin'." Got to say it with that Down East accent. 

[Daryl]

Mtn Meek, I enjoyed reading that re-print. Thanks.