Second rifle from a blank: a progress thread

[parve]

I started working on this rifle in August of 2023, but stuff like starting a new job and finishing a doctorate distracted me from making much progress in 2024. I've been making decent progress in the past few weeks, so hopefully I can keep the steam going in this thread. It started off with a Rice .45 7/8" straight octagon barrel, maple blank from Allen Martin, and a Kibler late Ketland lock. I was originally going to follow one of the rifles in Randall Pierce's book, but after inletting the barrel and drilling the ramrod hole I botched inletting a lollipop tang with gaps everywhere. I rebreeched the barrel with another long tang breech plug:





My ramrod hole drilling setup:



I use an old Yankee hand brace and advance the drill bit I bought from MBS about a half inch at a time.

New straight tang inlet over the old lollipop tang inlet:



Underlugs made and installed following Taylor's tutorial from this forum:





Lock plate (and later internals) inlet:



I made my own set triggers for this rifle out of 3/8" square stock for the plate and 3/16" flat bar for the triggers:



Trigger plate inlet:



Triggers inlet for free movement. I also got the rear spring inlet today:



Now I have to decide how I want to attach the tang and trigger plate. I'm working towards a longrifle from the Piedmont of North Carolina, and the originals I've been able to examine from the region all have wood screws for the tang and rely on the trigger guard to keep the triggers in place. Following the originals would make things pretty simple for me moving forward, but I'm waffling on drilling and tapping the trigger plate for a tang bolt instead.

[JBulitz]

Fit and finish looks super so far for a 2nd build!  Just to share my two cents on the tang bolt debate.  The really nice save you made using wider the tang looks like an opportunity to add some strength to the wrist.  In the last photo it looks like the grain us running nearly parallel to the barrel across the wrist. A tang bolt with a head made to match any additional wood screws could be done now that the tang width is uniform.  In my mind, thay would brace that fine wrist nicely with the long trigger bar, better than wood screws.  The threaded end could still be made to hide beneath the trigger guard.  Either way, it's clear you're doing a thoughtful and careful job of it!

[whetrock]

Congratulations on finishing your doctorate.

Your photos show good work. And you did a good job on the save with the new tang.

A few southern schools used that arrangement with the guard holding the trigger plate. Some of the antiques show failure there, with the guard bent down and the trigger plate coming out of its mortise. I've seen a few of those. There's a North Carolina rifle by one of the Whitsons that it looks to me like it has a repair based on that kind of problem. Looks like a tang bolt was added later, put through the trigger plate. But that doesn't mean they always had issues, either. That style was used by at least one old maker in the county where I grew up. I've seen antiques built that way that are still perfectly fine, with the trigger plates still tight. 

It is something to be avoided? I don't know. I know several people who think it's a cool detail. I do think there are a few things from the old days that we want to avoid. Breach plugs with only three poorly fitted coarse threads, for example. But it seems to me that some other details, like this one, might just be part of the charm of a particular school.

So I guess what I'm saying is that it really depends on your philosophy. Some of the guys on here are functionalists. Others are traditionalists. Some like every detail perfected and perfectly machined. Other want to see stuff built like it was in the old days, true to design, even with scraper marks and tool marks everywhere the old ones had them. There's plenty of room for opinion, and opinions can differ widely. So I hope you get some good feedback, but don't be surprised if the opinions differ.

If you want to keep a balance between improving function and traditional design and appearance, then, like JBulitz said, it might be possible to use a bolt and hide it. Hiding it under the trigger guard, as he suggests, is an option. Another you might consider is adding a threaded lug to the hidden side of the trigger plate. The tang bolt would thread into the lug, rather than passing all the way through. The head could be made to look just like the wood screw(s) used on other parts of the tang. The lug could be silver soldered on, or dovetailed into the plate. That would give you strength without affecting the asthetics of that detail. (If I was gonna use a lug, I think I'd use the dovetail option, or maybe use a loose dovetail until it was all constructed and threaded, and then glue it together with silver solder. Anway, I can imagine doing that without having to have a bottoming tap. I really hate having to grind the tips off my taps.)

You could just drill the trigger plate and tap it, too. You might be right in line with Whitson if you do.

[Hatchet-Jack]

Looking good! Following...

[whetrock]

PS: I also wanted to compliment you on your attention to detail with the lobe at the top of the front trigger. Randal will be pleased!




image web search app

[bama]

Two ways to look at tang bolt. Simple, easy method would be to use the wood screws. You are correct in that many southern guns just wood screws to hold the tang of the barrel in place. I have several originals that have survived with little damage to the wrist area using this method. I have also seen a number that have been broken through the wrist using this method. From a strength standpoint the use of a tang bolt is a better idea and on a long tang such as yours two tang bolts would help strengthen the wrist even further. Just because the old timers did something doesn’t make it right or set in stone. I think one of the best things Jim Kibler did on his SMR kit was to add a second tang bolt to the long tang. He could have very easily made the second bolt a wood screw and saved money, but he opted for strength. Good for Jim.

The choice is yours to make, it’s your rifle, build it to suit yourself.

[Blacksmoke]

parve:  Welcome to ALR!  Looking good so far!  I like your breech plug and tang!! The tang bolt is he way to go!  even i the "old boys" didn't do it so much, it will make for a stronger and safer wrist!! You van keep to local schools with profiling more than mechanics.  H.T.

[sz]

Doing well Parve.
I have been building from blanks for nearly 1/2 a century now.  If you'd like a few tips, PM me and maybe I can send you some info you might like to have.

[mikeyfirelock]

Off to a great start !    Lookin’ good.  ( bet you’re already thinking of the next one.  Building rifles is like doin’ drugs……but cheaper ( maybe) and lots better for you ! ( been doin’ it long time!)
mikeyfirelock.

[parve]

Thanks for the feedback everyone, I didn't make too much progress these past two weeks, last week was especially cold for SC and this week was busy. But with what time I had to work on this rifle, I went ahead with two tang bolts:



I was planning on making a flat spring for the front trigger out of 1/32" 1075, but I was struggling to get it around the front tang bolt. I picked up some music wire from Ace and made a coil to fit around the spring screw. The triggers are functional but I still need to inlet the front spring and screw, heat treat the rear spring, and case harden the trigger latch. I also got the buttplate mostly fit:



There's a bit of a hump towards the rear of the heel return, that's from bending it to get a more acute angle between the butt and the heel. There should be plenty of material underneath for it to file out flat and follow the line of the comb if I'm measuring things right

[Bill in Md]

great thread !!!!!

[flatsguide]

Nice work!
Cheers Richard

[Steeltrap]

I see the hump that you speak of. You should have no trouble filing that flat.

[Lone Wolf]

Very nice work.  I got you beat on time to finish a build, my first one took 7 years and I am working on one now that I started 4 years ago.  Finding time can be the hardest part of gun building for some of us.

[parve]

I got a little ahead of myself and started shaping the lock panels last night:


They still need to get slimmed up some, but so far I like the direction they’re going. I’ll install the lock bolts and trigger guard before going any farther though. Then back to the fun stuff

[parve]

Lock bolts and front finial done…


I picked up some sheet brass yesterday evening for the ramrod pipes, I’ll start work on those this weekend hopefully

[parve]

Ramrod pipes are done enough to install, the entry pipe skirt might need some trimming but I'll work that out when it's near ready to inlet. Next is the nose cap.

[Eric Krewson]

You have plenty of room for adjustments but the rear tip of your lock panel should be aligned to point down the center of the wrist. I suspect you are not done shaping yet and knew this already.

[whetrock]

Eric,
We'll see what he does with this. But the tear-dropped panel finial is a feature in some NC schools. He mentioned at the top that he was building a NC rifle. Some even have that drooped feature on both the back and front ends of the panels.

[parve]

I realized today the triggers and trigger guard don't fit, so I spent this afternoon downsizing the trigger shoes:

Fired:


Set:


I doubt these triggers will be very great to operate with gloves, but that is fine. If I need a rifle for hunting in the dead of winter, I will build another with a bigger trigger bow.

You have plenty of room for adjustments but the rear tip of your lock panel should be aligned to point down the center of the wrist. I suspect you are not done shaping yet and knew this already.

whetrock answered for me, the rifle that I'm most using as inspiration, as far as architecture goes, is No. 34 from Bill Ivey's book. The rear of the lock panel on that rifle droops down but the front is rounded.

[Eric Krewson]

I didn't know, being a rookie, I learned something, thanks.

[whetrock]

Bill Ivey and Kennth Orr have a short video on youtube that shows a few of these interesting rifles from their book. The video doesn't include #34 (Early Deep River school), but it does include a Rowan school rifle that has the drooping finials, as well as a several others that have interesting panels and other interesting features.

To skip to the Rowan school rifle, jump to 7:06 - 8:13. The views show right and left panels and the trigger guard.

[Blacksmoke]

Parve: You are coming along nicely!!  One thing to remember is the lock panel width around the lock plate.  On most of old originals that I've seen this ara is very narrow compared to most of the builders of today!  Keep this area to a minimum and your gun won't  take on the "slab sided" look.  Other than that you are doing fine! I esp. like your pan fence being against the recoil shoulder!!  H.T.
"

[parve]

Progress on this rifle has been sporadic and I've done a poor job of documenting any of it, but I'm coming up on the final bits. I remade the triggers since the ones I originally made didn't fit very well in the triggerguard, the front trigger still needs some attention but they function fine otherwise. All that's left to make and install are the sights, vent pick holder, the touch hole liner, and a ramrod.

[Stoner creek]

I would change the lock and side plate panels. Too long in the front and wonky because of the down turns in the back unless you’re doing a Rowan School gun. That box looks Deep River which is in conflict with Rowan. Make the side plate panels look fast! Your cheek piece looks a tiny bit longer in the front too. You’re doing a great job here but remember that the magic is in the finish. For goodness sakes don’t stain it in that disgusting Stop Sign 🛑 red that we’re seeing these days. Otherwise, rock on!!
W