1.5fg for .58 cal and bigger?

[Vikingson]

So, I am pretty much going all muzzle loading. I sold off my BPCR a while back and still have about 3-1/2#s of 1.5fg and I’ve seen some folks use it for shooting shot in a .62 cal smooth bore and larger. I have a .62 NW Trade gun and have always used FFL in it. And both FFL and fffg in my .54 rifles.  So my question is how do you all think it might work in a .58 rifle I’m picking up?  I want to use the OE 1.5fg up and honestly 3-1/2#s might last me a while. I’ll use it in the .62 but not sure about the .58.

Thanks
Charley

[bigsmoke]

So, you have been using the 1 1/2 in your .45 or .50 cal BPCR with good results, I assume.
I don't see any problem with using it in a .58 M/L rifle.  You would just have to develop the load your rifle would like.
I normally used Fg in my 8 bore rifle but occasionally used Ffg with good results, although it did print a bit high with the finer granulation.
Bottom line is you could use either granulation (1 1/2 or Ffg) but taylor the charge to the rifle to which shoots more accurately.
John (Bigsmoke)

[Vikingson]

I had very good results in 45-70 BPRC, and figured it would be good in the .58.  I do realize it will be a bit dirtier.  The gentleman I’m getting the .58 from hadn’t completely worked up a load for it yet but I’m thinking 90-100 grains of Ffg. So I think that might be a good starting point. In my BPRC I wiped the barrel after every 3rd shot. But that’s easy on a breach loader lol. Thank you for you reply.

Charley.

[RichG]

I use 120 gr 2f Olde Eynsford  for just over 1800 fps. in my .58. With 1.5f it takes 140gr to do the same thing. Also more fouling. 

[smylee grouch]

I use 110 gr 1 & 1/2 SWISS in my 58s, 62 and 66 rifles. I shoot a tight combo with Bear oil lube and fouling IS NOT a problem.

[Daryl]

Even with up to 200gr. in my .69 - zero fouling buildup between shots. I've never had fouling buildup between shots since about 1973. That's when I read Ned Robert's book(& Corbin's book) and
re-crowned the muzzles to a nice smooth radiused crown which allowed nice snug loads without patch damage. These gave improved accuracy.
In my .58's with slow twists, 72" in the Zouave and Numrich and 66" in the Large, I used 120gr. in the first two and 140gr. in the Large barrel to get the best accuracy. In those days, I was only shooting at 100yards. Those loads produced the smallest groups in all three rifles. Less powder opened up the groups. For example, in the Large barrel, 90gr. 2F would not stay on a pie plate at
100yards. Useless, imho.

[MuskratMike]

Go to your nearest B.P.C.R. shoot and peddle the 1 1/2 and buy some 2F. Both will work but 2F will use less powder for equal velocity, burn cleaner and ignite easier in my humble opinion. If you get a load you like and shoots well with the 1 1/2 then stay with it. My only experience is with a .58 caliber. It didn't like the 1 1/2 but shot better with the 2F.

[Vikingson]

Since I’ve got both 2f and 1.5f I’ll experiment and see which one makes the .58 happiest. But I’ll probably save most of the OE 1.5f for my trade gun and 12 ga SxS. I might also take it down to the muzzle loaders show in March and see if I can trade it for some 2f if the trade gun isn’t liking it as much as it likes the 2f. Main reason I asked was I’ve read posts that it’s best for big muskets and cannons. And I don’t have either of those. The main advantage for the field is I can use 2f for pan powder too. I tried the 1.5f in my trade gun pan and it was like watching a fuse burn haha.

Great insight here guys. Thank you very much.

Charley

[Daryl]

In guns that I have tried different granulations, I have found that no matter the granulation, you can work up accurate loads. It just takes
more powder with slower burning sizes.
The only rifle this did not work well in, is my current .50 Beck. It does not like 3F at all in a powder charge I am happy with. It does however
like 2F. I know darn well I could find a load with 1.5F or 1F that would shoot just as well.
The slower burning as in larger granulations sizes will duplicate the velocity of smaller granulations, but at lower pressure. Yes, it takes LARGER
powder charges to do that, however the vel. is lower at those velocities than the smaller granulations produce.
Lyman proved this back in the 70's with their handbook on black powder loading & shooting.

[smylee grouch]

Since I’ve got both 2f and 1.5f I’ll experiment and see which one makes the .58 happiest. But I’ll probably save most of the OE 1.5f for my trade gun and 12 ga SxS. I might also take it down to the muzzle loaders show in March and see if I can trade it for some 2f if the trade gun isn’t liking it as much as it likes the 2f. Main reason I asked was I’ve read posts that it’s best for big muskets and cannons. And I don’t have either of those. The main advantage for the field is I can use 2f for pan powder too. I tried the 1.5f in my trade gun pan and it was like watching a fuse burn haha.

Great insight here guys. Thank you very much.

Charley

After burning up a couple hundred pounds of 1 & 1/2 over the years I have never seen ANY  fuse burn. Once ignited Black Powder flashes regardless of granulation IMHO. I have used 1 & 1/2 for prime in a pinch and it worked fine when I did.

[Daryl]

Swiss 1 1/2F on the left - Schutzen 2F on the right.
Appear identical in granulation size to me.
Looks like they might be interchangeable, no?

[smylee grouch]

Good illustration Daryl. The main difference between those would probably be the actual weight in grains of equal volume. 

[Bob Roller]

Even with up to 200gr. in my .69 - zero fouling buildup between shots. I've never had fouling buildup between shots since about 1973. That's when I read Ned Robert's book(& Corbin's book) and
re-crowned the muzzles to a nice smooth radiused crown which allowed nice snug loads without patch damage. These gave improved accuracy.
In my .58's with slow twists, 72" in the Zouave and Numrich and 66" in the Large, I used 120gr. in the first two and 140gr. in the Large barrel to get the best accuracy. In those days, I was only shooting at 100yards. Those loads produced the smallest groups in all three rifles. Less powder opened up the groups. For example, in the Large barrel, 90gr. 2F would not stay on a pie plate at
100yards. Useless, imho.

The very first barrel Bill Large actually made after the big shop building was done was a 1x33x58 caliber with a 1 in 44 twist and 8 grooves.
It was a match winner with 65 grains of DuPont 3fg and a 50 yard offhand record was set with it when I loaned it to Wallace Brown.a local shooter now deceased.The next was another Bill Large barrel in 58 caliber and it was 34"X 1 and 1/8 in a representation of a rifle made by a Northen maker was also Brown.With the long Malcolm telescope it was a match winner that couldn't be used because of the scope.
Bill gave me that 1x33x58 and said it may or may not be any good.I also got good 100 yard groups with it using 80 grains of and a .575 Ball cast from very soft lead,I still have that mould bought from E.M.Ferris in 1952 for use in an Enfield carbine.I think that 1 in 44 twist with an 8 groove barrel may wtk today and using over 100 grains makes the makers and sellers of black powder happy.
Bob Roller

[Daryl]

The 2 band Enfield and short carbine Musketoon Enfield both had 48" rates of twist & 5 grooves. My Musketoon made 3" groups at 100 meters using 75gr. and 85gr. 2F GOEX and easily smacked the
200 meter plate from a standing shooting position using the larger load. The sight setting for this load, was on the 200yard level. It produced an even 1,400fps muzzle vel. 75gr. ran 1,308fps.
I used a .574" ball and .022" patch. Even though the patch did not go to the bottom of the grooves at the breech due to the progressive depth rifling, the patches did not burn. I can only assume the balls obturated. I only used dead soft lead for round ball target shooting.
I used to use clip-on WW alloy for hunting moose.

[Daryl]

Good illustration Daryl. The main difference between those would probably be the actual weight in grains of equal volume. 

I have found that Swiss powders are heavier per volume, than GOEX powders, thus have higher specific gravity. This could be due to the rolling method (greater weight used) at that stage
creating more dense powder.

[Bob Roller]

Back in the early 1950's we had DuPont and King's black powder and as long as either would go off we were happy.I think the DuPont was cleaner but maybe not and back then,percussion caps were hard to find.I had a round box of J.Goldmark's musket caps and 1/3 of them were duds and at that point in time a flintlock was not in the mix.Farris Gun Shop in Portsmouth,Ohio had Remington percussion caps and that was a 100 mile round trip on a 2 lane road.The Goldmark musket caps were made by Winchester Repeating Arms and so marked on the box.I have never tested various grades of black powder and 3fg was used in everything from a 10 gauge to a 25 caliber "Rat Rifle".
The short ranges round ball guns are used for was not a problem and I would not waste powder,lead and caps at 25 yards with a rifle and still think it's a handgun range.
Bob Roller

[Daryl]

I agree, Bob. Back in the early 70's when I bought my first BP rifle I did initially sight it in at 50-yards. I also figured 50yds was handgun range as that is what we shot
in our handgun qualifications for the last 6 rounds, prone at 50. Most all of my BP shooting was at 100yards, a rifle's range. It wasn't until I attended a black powder shoot
in the mid 1970's that I found a LOT of shooting was at 25 and 50. That felt like point blank shooting to me. We not only could see "back" then, we could hold the darn rifle still.