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3f swiss vs 2f
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Topic: 3f swiss vs 2f (Read 1055 times)
recurve
Hero Member
Posts: 707
3f swiss vs 2f
«
on:
February 04, 2025, 04:29:07 AM »
I'm working up the best load for a getz barrel 1-72 50cal . 42 inch b weight golden age swamped
my go to load for a 50cal is 70 grns of swiss 3f shot well at 50 but only soso at100yrds.
so I tried 80 of 3f and the groups looked good at both 50 & 100, patches looked great almost reuseable .
next I tried 80 grns 2f swiss not great groups blew the patches . so why does 2f swiss blow patches but 3f the same load they look great?
I was told 3f is more powerful faster burning, but seems gentle on my patches.
the patch is #40 drill with tallow lube(my denim was way too tight )
«
Last Edit: February 04, 2025, 08:21:21 PM by recurve
»
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alacran
Hero Member
Posts: 2309
Re: 3f swiss vs 2f
«
Reply #1 on:
February 04, 2025, 04:28:11 PM »
I like 40 pocket drill. I use it in my pistols, on some rifles. I also use it on my .62 smoothbore.
It doesn't work on my .58 Jaeger with the heavier load. It doesn't work on my .61 Jaeger with any load.
I've had the best luck with it on calibers under .45, although it worked well on a Rice barreled .50 that I had.
I have a .54 Rayl barreled rifle and it does very well with both the plinking load and the 95-grain hunting load.
I use bear oil on all of the above.
You pose an interesting question I think it might have to do with the peak of the pressure curve on the load. That is does it peak at the breech or further up the pipe.
I'm sure Daryl will chime in.
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scottmc
Hero Member
Posts: 613
Re: 3f swiss vs 2f
«
Reply #2 on:
February 04, 2025, 05:30:05 PM »
Recurve,
I dont have a scientific answer to your problem but I can say the same thing happened to me. Only mine is a .60 caliber.
I have only burnt swiss for many years now and when shooting 2f at around 75 grains, it was shredding patches and erratic on paper. I was not happy to say the least. A friend of mine who shoots big bores a lot said try goex (I immediately threw up wreaths of garlic and flashed crucifixs at him) and I did. Unbelievable results!!
No more shredded patches...tight group at 50 yards...consistent. Now, I'm shooting 90 grains to get grouping and elevation I needed but it is what it is. I'm shooting .022 pillow ticking and at Union county I can hold on the top edge of the Buffalo at 100 yards and knock them over Consistently if I do my part.
I do not have the shredding problem with my smaller calibers like .50 and .56.
Just a thought.
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Bill in Md
Sr. Member
Posts: 255
Re: 3f swiss vs 2f
«
Reply #3 on:
February 04, 2025, 07:46:52 PM »
Many variables....My Hoyt 54 shoots exactly the same with 70 3f swiss as it does with 85 grains of 2f goex.....That is my rifle, and another 54 will probably be different....Working up a load is part of the process. Embrace it!
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Every man is my superior in that I may learn from him.
recurve
Hero Member
Posts: 707
Re: 3f swiss vs 2f
«
Reply #4 on:
February 04, 2025, 07:48:49 PM »
blowen patch 80 2f swiss with 3f swiss patches
«
Last Edit: February 04, 2025, 07:53:37 PM by recurve
»
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Bill in Md
Sr. Member
Posts: 255
Re: 3f swiss vs 2f
«
Reply #5 on:
February 04, 2025, 08:01:00 PM »
First thing I would do if I had blown patches would be to ream the barrel a few hundred times with scotch brite pads.
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Every man is my superior in that I may learn from him.
recurve
Hero Member
Posts: 707
Re: 3f swiss vs 2f
«
Reply #6 on:
February 04, 2025, 08:13:33 PM »
I already did as part of the build fine steel wool on jag oil 50 strokes clean barrel repeat I push a tight ball & patch through to look for lands cutting patches
might have to repeat
I seem to notice more recoil with the 80 grns 2f swiss also
the 80grns of 3f swiss I could reuse the patches
tighter groups
the patching was new from Joan fab washed 2x from the same bolt(bought the whole thing)
side note the 2f produced the crud ring just ahead of the load seat , the 3f did not and has not in this or other rifles.. . Hmmmm.......?
«
Last Edit: February 04, 2025, 08:25:12 PM by recurve
»
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smylee grouch
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Posts: 8006
Re: 3f swiss vs 2f
«
Reply #7 on:
February 04, 2025, 08:54:57 PM »
More recoil with 2f ? That is not MY experience . With all else being the same I get more felt recoil when using 3f. Not a lot but enuf to tell the difference.
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Daryl
Hero Member
Posts: 16133
Re: 3f swiss vs 2f
«
Reply #8 on:
February 04, 2025, 09:54:15 PM »
Sounds weird to me too, SmyleeG. Why 2F Swiss would "blow" patches and not 3F is also a strange occurrence to me.
My Rice .50, 44" bl. does not like 3F at all, and prefers (as I also do) 2F.
The middle 3 shots are 85gr. 2F. The outer triangle is 75gr. of 3F. Balls and patches were identical for both "groups". Smae
sights and hold for both groups. 50 yards, from a rest. Schutzen 2F was used, and 3F was GOEX.
Only three shots with each load. When I feel good about the shots, I don't use more than 3 in a group. At longer ranges, I would
have made 5 shot groups, however the 3F load is not suitable for any range shooting past 25 yards.
All of the patches were reusable with no damage at all. .495" pure lead ball and .021" (10ounce) patch. 10:1 water & water sol. oil
«
Last Edit: February 04, 2025, 10:00:24 PM by Daryl
»
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Daryl
"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V
recurve
Hero Member
Posts: 707
Re: 3f swiss vs 2f
«
Reply #9 on:
February 05, 2025, 02:17:58 AM »
I found it strange too , that's why I posted 2f blowing patches but not 3f patches
?
the good thing is the 3f out grouped the 2f
the 3f should burn faster getting up to velocity sooner and the 2f might burn the entire length of the barrel 42 inch 1-72 .50
«
Last Edit: February 05, 2025, 02:24:23 AM by recurve
»
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Leatherbark
Sr. Member
Posts: 396
Re: 3f swiss vs 2f
«
Reply #10 on:
February 05, 2025, 08:10:44 PM »
I have worked with Swiss 2f for about 7 years now and still have several pounds and have been frustrated. I have never got tight enough grouping with it in a Muzzleloader. A BP cartridge gun yes, it is very accurate. Goex 3f and 2f although dirtier has always given me tighter groups in my ML rifles than Swiss. Maybe I bought a bad lot as all 10 pounds I bought had the same lot#.
Bob
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recurve
Hero Member
Posts: 707
Re: 3f swiss vs 2f
«
Reply #11 on:
February 05, 2025, 08:25:23 PM »
3f swiss was always been cleaner and more acerate in my guns ,less crude ring >>>--->my 2f swiss is an older batch
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Daryl
Hero Member
Posts: 16133
Re: 3f swiss vs 2f
«
Reply #12 on:
February 05, 2025, 10:00:34 PM »
All powders I have used over the years from about 1974 on, have never fouled my bore more than any other. They
have all shot cleanly, the next load wiping down the last one, as described in Ned Robert's book.
"Ven you loads der next vun, you cleans der last".
I have never found one granulation nor make of powder to shoot dirtier than another. I've used Curtis and Harvey's, 3, 2 and 1F
as well as GO 3 and 2F, Meteor 3, 2 and 1F(which we called "cannon powder" due to the size of the granuals), GOEX in all 3 sizes,
Schutzen in 3 and 2F, Old Enysford in 2 and 3F. I have only used Swiss 1.5F in a ctg. rifle. There was another powder oh yes Dupont
in 2F and American Deadshot 2F. That Deadshot was the best powder I ever used, shooting slugs in a 38" twist .50 Bauska barrel. MOA
at 100 yards. Double apertures. All shot without ANY wiping, even when shooting slugs.
Too, Taylor's experience pretty much duplicates mine as to the powder usage & shooting without wiping.
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Daryl
"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V
Freedom
Starting Member
Posts: 17
Re: 3f swiss vs 2f
«
Reply #13 on:
February 06, 2025, 05:36:54 PM »
Quote from: recurve on February 04, 2025, 04:29:07 AM
so why does 2f swiss blow patches but 3f the same load they look great?
The crud ring that forms from the lower pressure 2f will keep the ball from completely obturating to fill the bore during ignition. So after the first inch of travel, your patched ball is now too loose to fit the bore....Allowing the gas to blow by the ball, and roast your patch.
I was just having this same problem with some old 2ff Diamondback. When I opened the measure up over a 100grains it started to shoot clean and the patches started to survive the ride.
«
Last Edit: February 06, 2025, 05:44:03 PM by Freedom
»
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Daryl
Hero Member
Posts: 16133
Re: 3f swiss vs 2f
«
Reply #14 on:
February 06, 2025, 10:55:28 PM »
I keep hearing about a crud ring. In all my shooting since 1972, I've never experienced a crud ring.
I think some guys who experience crud rings need to use thicker patches as well as more lube. I have
also heard of bore butter, properly known as eucalyptus or camphor oil in lip balm coating the bore from
successive shots. I can't "see" how that could happen either, with the loads we use - EASILY.
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Daryl
"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V
recurve
Hero Member
Posts: 707
Re: 3f swiss vs 2f
«
Reply #15 on:
February 06, 2025, 11:24:45 PM »
I have gotten a crud ring 490 ball with 10oz .022patch got in a hoyt barrel and this week in my new getz with #40 drill both with 2f swiss tallow lube an inch above load seat.
I can shoot all day with 3 f swiss and have very little to none crud ring
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hanshi
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Posts: 5334
My passion is longrifles!
Re: 3f swiss vs 2f
«
Reply #16 on:
February 07, 2025, 12:19:33 AM »
Strange situation it appears. I've noticed crud rings developing in some rifles and not others. And sometimes a rifle that developed a crud ring during the previous days shooting would shoot clean, no crud ring, the next time out. I've about decided atmospheric conditions may have something to do with it. Only rarely have I ever encountered a crud ring that interfered with seating a prb.
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!Jozai Senjo! "always present on the battlefield"
Young guys should hang out with old guys; old guys know stuff.
smylee grouch
Hero Member
Posts: 8006
Re: 3f swiss vs 2f
«
Reply #17 on:
February 07, 2025, 12:23:23 AM »
I wonder if that ( crud ring ) could be caused by some thing other than powder brand? Lube type and or amount, patch thickness or relative humidity to name a few.
JUST NOTICED HANSHI's post after I posted. I agree
«
Last Edit: February 07, 2025, 12:27:36 AM by smylee grouch
»
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wolf
Full Member
Posts: 230
Re: 3f swiss vs 2f
«
Reply #18 on:
February 07, 2025, 03:38:48 AM »
i stopped using Swiss long ago because of the crude ring and the expense with no more accuracy than goex ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
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recurve
Hero Member
Posts: 707
Re: 3f swiss vs 2f
«
Reply #19 on:
February 08, 2025, 03:13:44 AM »
I remember that someone (maybe mad monk) had said that swiss produces higher temps forming a glass like fouling/ring
Offline Mad Monk
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Re: FFFG Swiss in a 54 Cal.
« Reply #18 on: September 06, 2009, 04:56:44 PM »
Quote
Quote from: geneC on September 04, 2009, 01:26:34 PM
Swiss does leave an area or ring of very hard fouling at the bottom. If you are not accustomed to cleaning the bore btw shots, beware.
When you see that ring of HARD fouling that is an indication that the charge is a little more than it ought to be. It is an indication of very high gas temperatures that fuses a portion of the fouling into a glass-like state.
When the Swiss first arrived in the U.S. in 2000 I tried it. Using 3F in my .45 longrifle I found that a point was reached in charge volume where this baking ring would appear. Backing off just a few grains the ring would go away. The same was found in my .50 caliber rifles.
That baked ring has nothing to do with the quality or clean burning properties of the powder. It is strictly a point of a little too much powder in the charge. I saw the same identical thing with the first KIK powder that GOEX imported in 2000 and the same thing in a shipment of WANO that went to LunaTech in Georgia at that time.
BP fouling is mainly potassium sulfate and potassium carbonate. Each one has a critical temperature where the minute particles formed during powder combustion become agglomerated and then fused into a glass-like mass. This relates to gas temperatures behinbd the projectile as the projectile first begins to move in the bore.
The Swiss powder produces higher gas temperatures compared to GOEX and the first KIK had a higher combustion temperature compared to GOEX.
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Daryl
Hero Member
Posts: 16133
Re: 3f swiss vs 2f
«
Reply #20 on:
February 08, 2025, 03:38:51 AM »
I only use Swiss powder in my Sharps.
I would stop using it in a long rifle if that is what it does or did. As noted, NONE of the powders I have every used, did this & you
know I don't use squib loads. Both my GM .45 bl. and .40 Goodoien ran 2,240fps with this top loads using GOEX in both 3F and 2F.
Those velocities and loads were only needed, when I used LehighValley Lube on the patches. Otherwise, the speeds were just around
1,700 to 1,800fps with the accuracy loads.
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Daryl
"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V
recurve
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Posts: 707
Re: 3f swiss vs 2f
«
Reply #21 on:
February 08, 2025, 03:41:04 AM »
more mad monk
The Swiss black powder matches late 1800's fine sporting powders out of Germany and England. Burns very hot. If you look at original longrifles that still have the original gunsmith provided tin "charger" you see them set up at one grain per caliber. That is basically a point of diminishing returns charge with the fast hot burning sporting powders.
When the Swiss powder first came into the U.S. I checked it. Shooting Swiss 3F in my Getz barrel .45 Schimmel. Started low. Around 30 grains and worked my way up in 5 grain increments over the chronograph. At 55 grains in the .45 I started to see a skin of glass-like fouling just ahead of where the patched ball sat on the charge. At 60 grains the band got thicker and longer.
The fast hot burning sporting powders are capable of combustion temperatures around 2,000 degrees. When gas temperatures behind the projectile in a black powder gun go over 1600 degrees you begin to see a heat fusing of the combustion residue particles. Above a certain point the combustion residue gets hot enough to melt onto the bore walls. While still water-soluble it becomes difficult to remove because there is so little surface are of the fused glass-like deposit to work on.
In working with the Swiss powder I used that point in the charge, where I would see the first indications of a glass-like film, and back off a few grains.
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Daryl
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Posts: 16133
Re: 3f swiss vs 2f
«
Reply #22 on:
February 08, 2025, 10:06:04 PM »
Sounds like a good reason not to use it in a muzzleloader, although Herb has and never mentioned(that I remember) crud rings, even when using 100gr. or more in a .54 or .58.
This is not to say it doesn't happen, just that Herb never saw it.
This makes me wonder if the lube used on patches has anything to do with it?
DPhar uses 140gr. 1.5F Swiss in his 16 bore rifle with a linen patched 17bore round ball and Neetsfoot Oil for lube. I do not recall him ever saying anything about a crust ring.
«
Last Edit: February 09, 2025, 02:05:52 AM by Daryl
»
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Daryl
"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V
Bryan Enoch
Starting Member
Posts: 2
Re: 3f swiss vs 2f
«
Reply #23 on:
February 10, 2025, 03:28:02 AM »
Hi Recurve,
Have you tried chronographing to see what speeds you are actually getting with both of these powders, 2F vs 3F? It might be worth it and should give you some valuable information.
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recurve
Hero Member
Posts: 707
Re: 3f swiss vs 2f
«
Reply #24 on:
February 10, 2025, 07:42:07 AM »
no way to check speed I just look for great gruops
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