Kibler 16ga load?

[hmccaskey]

Background

I am close to completing my Kibler 16 GA fowler.

I have been searching for 16 GA loads (powder and shot quantity) to have a safe starting point and a max stopping point while I develop a load with a good pattern.

I plan to develop a load for spring turkey hunting.  25 yd range.   #6 lead shot and Goex 2F powder.

1100 fps should provide enough energy for a clean kill at 25 yds, but faster is better.

I can't find many references on-line to 16 GA muzzle loaders loads.

I do find loads for 20 Ga muzzle loaders.   Some with up to 1 1/2 oz of shot and another with 2 oz of shot!

For modern 16 Ga shot shells I see a max load of 1 1/4 oz of shot at about 1150 fps. 
This looks like a 2 3/4 dram equivalent load.  From conversion factors I have found  2 3/4 dram equivalent is approximately 75 grains volume of 2F powder.

Several references suggest starting with a square load.  Equal volume of power and shot.

I made some measurements of square loads.  The shot was measured with a graduated dipper and weighed.  The powder was poured in the dipper and then measured in a volume measure with 5 grain increments.

shot oz #6    powder volume   (approximate)

1 oz           66 grains
1 1/8 oz     74 grains
1 1/4 oz     82 grains
1 3/8 oz     90 grains
1 1/2 oz     98 grain


1 1/2 oz with 98 grains is going to have some serious recoil in this light gun.

I also see reference to using more shot than powder for better patterns.

My plan is to

1. Start patterning with 1 1/4 oz of shot and 75 grains of powder and try to find a good wad combination to produce an acceptable pattern.

2. Then try increasing shot and powder (1 at a time.)

My questions?

Does this sound like a reasonable plan?

What do you consider the max load for this gun?

Thanks

Hal McCaskey

[Dennis Daigger]

Hal,
Here is a link to what I thought was a sensible and informative article on shooting black powder shotgun muzzleloaders.
http://traditionalmuzzleloader.com/index.php/loading-the-smoothbore-gun
Dennis

[Snowmoon]

I can't help, but I'm eager to read what everyone has to say.

[rich pierce]

I’m not sure gauge matters as much as load, within reason. So loads that are good for a 20 should be as good or better in a 16 because of a shorter shot string. But they all need tweaking to get a good pattern and decent velocity. I use the soup can test for penetration. Set out a Campbell’s soup can at your farthest range. The shot you use should penetrate the can. If not, velocity is too low. 

[hmccaskey]

Dennis

Thanks for the link. Very informative. 

 Rich

I have been saving tin cans for a while now.  I have good supply. 

[Daryl]

16 gauge:
   

2 1/2 drams = 68 grains
   

1 ounce
     

3 drams = 82 grains
   

1-1/8 ounces

Makes sense to me. As for wads in a cylinder bore, you might try 2 or even 3 overshot cards between powder and shot, then 1 over the shot.
Individually, these are very light weight and will not destroy the pattern as happens with the thick and heavier fiber (donna conna wads).

[JBJ]

Take a few minutes and read the words of V.M Starr on muzzleloading shotguns. It's worth while.
https://castboolits.gunloads.com/archive/index.php/t-2605.html

In my experience, the rhyme about "less powder, more lead" is spot on. If your goal is to mimic modern shotgun velocities over 1200 fps, I' not going to be of much help. Again, in my experience 1050 fps +/- is kind of a sweet spot.

J.B.

[Bob Gerard]

It will take you some trial and error I suspect, as it usually does for any gun, to get your best load.
I have found that my .62 likes 70 grains of 3f by volume and I match that for shot (square load) but usually add a little extra shot in for the pot. It dusts the clays like a champ.
With round ball, however, the gun loves 90 grains 3f out to 50 yards.

[Woodpecker]

I always start with the lead weight for the gauge. A 16ga = 16 lead balls to the pound so 1oz. Same scoop of 2F.

I finished a Kibler fowler in 16ga and it gave me fits until yesterday. I shoot 7/8oz of 7.5 in the Pedersoli 20ga double so used 1oz of 7.5 for the Kibler. I could not get it to pattern and stared at the paper after every combination shaking my head. Yesterday I tried 1oz of 5 shot and it patterned well. Only fired 6 but all were tight enough for me to put the paper away. All 6 patterned about 6" low at 20 yards so I'll have to work around that.

Good luck and let us know how it goes for you.

[Pukka Bundook]

What Daryl and JBJ say, Kasky.

Even try 2 1/4 drams and an ounce.
The old rule of thumb that works with good powder, is a dram to a half ounce of shot. Even in a 12, two drams will work with an ounce very often.

Hawker recommended going by the shoulder as Rich P mentioned, rather than bore, and more by the weight of the gun.
For medium bores, he suggests an ounce and a half, and the same measure of powder. A good healthy load!

Some choices  to work on!

[Daryl]

I can see i have to do some more patterning with my 20 bore, but right now it is shooting 65% (mod) with normal lubed thick wads and 1 1/8oz and 3 drams of powder. It choked Imp Cyl.

[Pukka Bundook]

One must remember Daryl, that choke lengthens the range, and lightens the bag!

[rich pierce]

One must remember Daryl, that choke lengthens the range, and lightens the bag!

In the chem lab, a 10% solution is done by weight. 10 grams per 100 ml of water (with a mass of 100 grams because 1 milliliter equals 1 gram) is a 10% solution.

Outside a science or production environment, I’m sure there are different ways people without access to an accurate scale see it.

[Daryl]

I've done a LOT of patterning. Counting pellets in the load, averaging the "throw". I went to the forestry office and got a bunch of old maps. These were 60" square
and wonderful for patterning. Map on one side, plain white on the other side. Was easy to find the centre of the pattern, mark it and overlay the 40" diameter sheet of lexan
with the 20" circle cut out of the middle for concentration percentages - all important for "distance" shooting.

[Daryl]

One must remember Daryl, that choke lengthens the range, and lightens the bag!

LOL - you are absolutely 50% right. Always a "full" bag. Don't leave the field without it!

[hmccaskey]

I have tried several load combinations now.

The most uniform distribution of a pattern used the classic load   75 grains Goex FF, nitro card, lubed fiber cushion wad, 1 1/4 #6 shot and an over card.   Nice even pattern but very wide at 20 yds.  Not very dense.  No good for turkey.

Best tighter pattern loads for turkey I have tried are based on the Sky Chief load.
The best so far at 25 yds.

82 grains of Goex FF, nitro card, 1 3/8 oz #6 copper plated shot, over card, vegetable oil soaked fiber wad on top.  Tested at 25 yds.  5 to 10 hits on a turkey target (head/spine) kill zone.  complete pass through both front and back of tin can.

Still working on it but this will do for upcoming turkey season  in GA.

[Daryl]

Have you tried the 2 thin "B" wads between power and shot & one over the shot yet?
I won a trap shoot with that combination at rendezvous shooting this gun, an 11 bore.

[alacran]

Have any of you patterned your smoothbores by swinging through the target while standing?