Brown Bess

[oldtravler61]

  Looking for advice..please..!  There is possible original Brown Bess at our pawn shop. To know if it is or a fake anyone kind enough to offer advice ?
  TIA

[backsplash75]

a picture is worth a 1000 words. Post up some images.

Buy this book. Compare with images in it.  https://gunandswordcollector.com/product/brown-bess/

[smart dog]

Hi,
I can offer a lot of advice but nothing until I see the gun.

dave

[oldtravler61]

  Dave I will try to get some. I'm really looking for advice on what to look for. This shop isn't real friendly to taking pictures of there guns.

[JTR]

Look for a reconversion to flint, from percussion. If it shows a flint reconversion, it might well be an original. But that wouldn't mean it's a correct original....
The problem with Bess guns is that just about everything under the sun has been done to them.
 

[smart dog]

Hi,
A copy of Goldstein and Mowbray's book shown above is the best advice I can give without photos.  There is a lot to look for and it would require a long, long post to describe much of it. The barrel should be 39", 42" or 46" long and about 75 caliber. The lock should have a crown over GR or WR under the pan and TOWER or DUBLIN CASTLE or some name with a date.  It matters if those marks are engraved or stamped. The barrel should have British proof marks near the breech.  There is a lot more depending on the pattern.

dave 

[Adrie luke]

Proofmarks

https://www.ruapekapeka.co.nz/assets/PDFs/brown-bess-muskets.pdf

[smart dog]

Hi Adrie,

Thanks for that link.  Unfortunately it has a some things wrong.  There were no Brown Besses at Blenheim (1704) because it was not developed until the 1720s.  The first pattern Brown Bess did not have 48" barrels, they had 46" barrels.  The marine musket shown has also had the feather spring replaced and marine muskets had 42" barrels.  Ordnance did not swap out broken flint cocks on the India pattern of 1793, they issued a new pattern called the pattern 1809 which had the double throated flint cock.  Anyway, the photos should help Oldtraveler.

dave

[JV Puleo]

As to the gun in the antique shop, while possible it is pretty unlikely. Most likely its an Italian reproduction either aged or simply showing age from lots of reenactor use. I see these questions asked frequently. Get the book...but, as a very rudimentary, quick check you can look at the lock...the markings should be engraved, not stamped. There should be an Ordnance Store Keeper's mark just below the pan...it's a crown with an arrow through it. The barrel should be proofmarked with the Tower view stamp (crossed scepters) and the King's mark...a GR cypher. All of these can and are faked today but if any one is not present then it should be a no-go.

Keep in mind that competent people have spent years studying this subject so it's impossible to sum it up in a forum post. It's also a fluid subject in that new things are being learned often so much of the material that is 30 or 40 years old is out of date.

[oldtravler61]

  I went to the shop Saturday. From information from all of you. Especially the stamps on the lock looked iffy at best. Two the stock seemed to be to good to be true for the age. The flintlock looked to me to be aged but not as in 250+ years. Whoever did the work to pass this as an original is good.
 There were no military markings of any kind that I could see. Also an I might be wrong on this but there was no kind of information that proved its originality. Just the tag stating it was Russian an from our Revolution.
 Last but not least they didn't let me take pictures.
  On the Brightside I'm not out 2 k. Thank you for all your help.
  Mike

[JTR]

Probably a good move, Mike!

[JV Puleo]

Russian?
I've seen and owned Russian Flint muskets but never seen one earlier than about 1830. Russian arms are fairly common in the UK where they came back from the Crimean War. All of the follow French patterns. That said, the British supplied Russia with a quantity of muskets (I think about 30,000) in 1812. As far as I know that was the only time Russian soldiers carried British muskets.
You made a good call.

[EGG17601]

Russian?
I've seen and owned Russian Flint muskets but never seen one earlier than about 1830. Russian arms are fairly common in the UK where they came back from the Crimean War. All of the follow French patterns. That said, the British supplied Russia with a quantity of muskets (I think about 30,000) in 1812. As far as I know that was the only time Russian soldiers carried British muskets.
You made a good call.

That's what my research said as well. The Russians also made their own Brown Bess copies. And there were muskets supplied by GB to Sweden that could plausibly be mistaken for having Russian markings. All of which of course occurred after the Revolutionary War.

[JV Puleo]

Last but not least they didn't let me take pictures...

That, in itself would be a huge red flag to me. No antique dealer knows everything, especially where arms are concerned. I once drove to southern RI to look at a "Brown Bess" in a local gun shop. The "gun expert" was sure that's what it was...and couldn't have been more wrong. It was actually a M1777 French musket but since the price was $175 I bought it without telling them anything. This was about 25 years ago and, even then, it was an insanely low price. My rule of thumb is that if a dealer places a price on something and he's way off that's his problem.

No Russian muskets were used in the Revolution. I doubt anyone has ever made that claim. Ironically enough, the British government approached the Russian government to "rent" Russian regiments during the Revolution. Catherine II turned them down and they then went to the various German principalities who supplied what we call the Hessians (though not all of them came from Hess). But for that there would have been a "Russian intervention" in the Revolution.

[oldtravler61]

   JV  when I first seen it I thought hey they finally have something that's not black plastic. I've never been a Bess  lover but a friend is. The price on it was just shy of 2 k. Anyone who knows me. Knows I'm frugal when buying. But there attitude just put me off. The gun looked decent but a few things just didn't look right for a gun 250 + years old.
 I want to thank you an others who replied.   Oldtravler

[JV Puleo]

You did right.
I'd be gobsmacked if anyone in in a shop that specialized "black" rifles knew anything at all about 18th century arms much less the nuances of what, or what isn't a British Ordnance musket. Even people who should know frequently don't. It would be like taking my 1910 car to the local garage to have the brakes repaired. They wouldn't know how to take the wheels off...much less fix anything.