Innovative Feature on an English Percussion Fowler

[bluenoser]

Picked up another decent quality run of the mill English fowler restoration project.  These are still available at very reasonable prices and are a great opportunity to practice/develop restoration skills.
This one is "Manton" marked on the lock with "London" on the barrel and most likely double Birmingham proof marks, but possibly London commercial proof - which I think unlikely.  Cleanup and magnification will tell.  Definitely not Joseph and likely not one of his sons.  Could be a later member of the family, an unrelated Manton or an English-made knockoff.
The innovative feature is the location of the hammer screw, which straddles the joint between the hammer and the tumbler shaft.  Although, in my opinion, not as aesthetically pleasing, I can see advantages.  This is the first time I have seen it.
Has anyone else seen this and could it lead to identification of the maker?

[Pukka Bundook]

Never seen the likes before, Bluenoser.
It looks Slightly related to the Lovell way of attaching a hammer to the tumbler.   
The latter I always wonder why we do not see or use it more!

Best,
R.

[Tanselman]

I have not seen this before, but despite its odd look, it leaves more metal in the tumbler shaft, i.e., a more solid tumbler shaft, and I've seen a good number on American rifles where the shaft has snapped off at the lock face, from a hole through its center. It also looks like it would retard the hammer after years of use from starting to get a little loose on the shaft. If the tumbler's screw head is big enough to hide the entire "ugly" off-center hole/shaft, it may be a decent idea.

Shelby Gallien

[bluenoser]

Thanks for your comments.  I would like to look into the Lovell way of attaching a hammer to the tumbler.  Where might I find info?
Yes, it should make for a more sturdy tumbler shaft and snugging up the screw would correct for any slight loosening of the fit.  It does not appear to be a taper fit.  It would also significantly simplify things if a more aggressive repair is needed.  The screw appears to be the original and it would have been nice if the head were a tad larger since the rear edge of the joint is visible.

[Pukka Bundook]

a bun nut is a good way to attach a cock or hammer as well, Bluenoser.

If I can find a pic of the Lovelle I will attach it.

found it....


Picture says it's attached....might turn up in a while!
The great part about Lovelles idea, is that a cock can be pressed onto the round tumbler and set at exactly the angle best suited, before the hole is drilled and the peg inserted.
It was used on the British P 42 I believe.
Also a round tumbler shank will be stronger than one squared off.  Normal cock screw in centre hole completes the job of course.

[Bob Roller]

A novel way for sure but the conventional way requires little skill and no intelligence so it's always been my choice
when making locks.If I ever saw this method I don't remember where .The mechanism in this lock is 99% identical to mine and lacks a fly.These are not hard to make.
Bob Roller

[bluenoser]

Thanks for the post P B.  I now recall seeing that.  I also recall a post (likely here) regarding making a new shaft for a tumbler and fitting a hammer and using that method to lock the shaft to the tumbler body, once it was properly indexed.  Sounded like a good solution to a problem to me.

Bob, when one examines one of your locks, it becomes obvious a good deal of skill and intelligence are involved

[Bob Roller]

Bluenoser,
Thank you for the comment on my lock making.Looking at this odd interference fit with a pin and IF I was doing it I would use a tapered pin made to a length compatible with this idea and use the hammer screw to make a crushed fit.
Bob Roller

[Pukka Bundook]

Yes, that's how it should be done, Bob.

[bluenoser]

Agreed regarding rigidity.  The more I think about it, the better it sounds.  it should also simplify tightening a loosened hammer.

Edit
Having thought about it, I believe there is a fly in the ointment.  One would think a conventionally placed hammer screw and the addition of a tapered hole on the perimeter would further weaken the tumbler shaft.  A tapered flat wedge fitted to one face of the hole in the hammer might be a better approach.

[Bob Roller]

That would depend on the size of the taper pin.I used 6/0 for a long time on the link from the tumbler to the mainspring.possibly 100 locks used it.I used 4/0 on the Shoults locks for a long time for the frizzen pivot.Thise pins came 100 in a box and an old line industrial hardware store had them.A 3/0 case hardened after fitted and trimmed to length would probably be OK for the hammer/tumbler idea.That hardware store was one I worked in foe a while.It was a family owned store called J.L.Cook and it handled top of the line items and had an inventory of both Starret and Browne&Sharpe precision tools.I bought almost all my micrometers for outside and inside measurement.Thee Cook family finally aged out of the business and sold it to a man who kept it alive until 1985.One of the Cook brothers,Norman was gassed in the First "Wotld War" and had a hard time making himself understood while trying to talk so he was the book keeper.This city once was heavily industrialized but one by one the machine shops closed and "Industrial Arts"were no longer being taught to boys who were interested in learning how to work with any and all machines used in manufacturing.Sad times indeed,
Bob Roller

[bluenoser]

Thanks for the explanation Bob.  I defer to your wisdom and experience.
Any day you learn something is a good day