Germanic lock

[smart dog]

Hi,
It looks like it could be a drop in for a Siler.  Are you thinking of a detachable bolster and pan?  That makes cleaning up and polishing the lock plate so mush easier. I don' know if you are asking for opinions Jim but I hate the Siler flint cock.  That big chested appearance is so clumsy and awkward.  I prefer the chest of the flint cock to be more rounded down so the neck is not parallel with the lower jaw.  Here are examples.







Good luck with the project. 

dave

[Jim Kibler]

I don't have a Siler lock here, but I think the plate is a touch bigger in some areas, so it could probably act as a substitute or replacement.   The pan will be detachable and a bridled version will be offered. 

It's funny, I absolutely hate the tapered down cock shape like shown!  I'll post a couple pictures of what I've based this on.

Thanks,
Jim

[Jim Kibler]

You've got me thinking...  I'll pull this slope of the cock down a bit and see how it looks.  Just a bit...

[Jim Kibler]

A view at rest of the current version.

[Jim Kibler]

One example of a cock used as an example when designing.

[Jdbeck]

This early original George Shroyer from York county, also is a similar fit.

Jim ever considered doing some Rev War rifles such as the Charleville or Brown Bess?

 These items are widely available but the quality is always lacking, I see many impressions using the poorly made Indian rifles. I feel like this will be a big market— I personally would love to see a better quality version of the rev war military issued guns for reenactors groups.

[Jim Kibler]

A slightly modified cock shape...

[Jim Kibler]

This early original George Shroyer from York county, also is a similar fit.

Jim ever considered doing some Rev War rifles such as the Charleville or Brown Bess?

 These items are widely available but the quality is always lacking, I see many impressions using the poorly made Indian rifles. I feel like this will be a big market— I personally would love to see a better quality version of the rev war military issued guns for reenactors groups.

We'll do a Brown Bess at some point as there has been quite a bit of interest.  I've decided to fit this project in as it's been something I've wanted to do for a while and there have been many requests for this style of lock with our quality level.  I think it should be great for the custom builders and will end up going on one of our kits in the future.

Jim

[JTR]

This early original George Shroyer from York county, also is a similar fit.

Jim ever considered doing some Rev War rifles such as the Charleville or Brown Bess?

 These items are widely available but the quality is always lacking, I see many impressions using the poorly made Indian rifles. I feel like this will be a big market— I personally would love to see a better quality version of the rev war military issued guns for reenactors groups.

We'll do a Brown Bess at some point as there has been quite a bit of interest.  I've decided to fit this project in as it's been something I've wanted to do for a while and there have been many requests for this style of lock with our quality level.  I think it should be great for the custom builders and will end up going on one of our kits in the future.

Jim

That's a fine looking lock!
John

[smart dog]

A slightly modified cock shape...

Hi Jim,
I like that much better!!!

dave

[HSmithTX]

Let me know when the pre-order opens up.  I need 2 of these. 

[Eric Kettenburg]

Looks great!

I may be the odd man out but I would hope that you take no consideration at all to potential retrofitting as a Siler replacement.  I would fear concessions made that would subtract from an otherwise great looking and historically correct lock.

[Stoner creek]

Looks great!

I may be the odd man out but I would hope that you take no consideration at all to potential retrofitting as a Siler replacement.  I would fear concessions made that would subtract from an otherwise great looking and historically correct lock.

 Agree with Eric. Retrofitting would leave a bad taste. This lock will be good on its own merits. No need in doing anything other making a great product.

[Scota4570]

I like the beefier tail end of the plate. It looks better to my novice eye than a siler plate.  It leaves more options to reshape it.  IT is still useful to drop in a siler inlet with slight wood removal.   

[Jim Kibler]

Well,  I hear what you guys are saying...  One consideration is the pre-shaped stocks designed for a Siler lock.  The custom (from a blank) market is pretty small.  I generally like to do my best to make sure any venture is a profitable one.  People can make their choices as to what they want to use.   It's by no means a drop in replacement, but I think it's big enough to cover the inlet, though I'm not sure about this.  Any suggestions about plate shape to make it better are certainly welcome, as are any other suggestions for that matter.  I tweaked things a touch more and made the pan and frizzen 5% smaller.  I believe I like this better...

[Jdbeck]

Looks great!

I may be the odd man out but I would hope that you take no consideration at all to potential retrofitting as a Siler replacement.  I would fear concessions made that would subtract from an otherwise great looking and historically correct lock.

I agree, the market is saturated, and this lock looks like an extremely similar foot print to the Siler. I personally would like to see something a little different. Maybe more curve to the bottom plate, and the smaller pan is definitely an improvement.

 Obviously Jim is going to follow his interest and the market, but there’s a lot of Early and Golden age era locks that are not currently available, that would only take a few adjustments to this design and could be worthwhile:

[Jim Kibler]

The world is full of similar cars, but there's always someone trying to make one better.  I may be biased, but I'm certain this will be the case with our lock.  From a novices viewpoint, this may seem similar to current Germanic offerings, but I would contend they are worlds apart!  I've restrained myself from critiquing current offerings and I'll keep it this way...

[Jdbeck]

The world is full of similar cars, but there's always someone trying to make things better.  I may be biased, but I'm certain this will be the case with our lock.  From a novices viewpoint, this may seem similar to current Germanic offerings, but I would contend that they are worlds apart!  I've restrained myself from critiquing current offerings and I'll keep it this way...

I’m just saying since the opportunity is here maybe add some more curve to the plate, not super drastic, but alitle tail drop on a lock always looks great with the lines.

[Jim Kibler]

From a design standpoint, I'm trying to bridge the gap between the earlier locks with the cool forms and shapes and the later locks that generally have straighter plates.  Most guns built today work best with a relatively straight plate.

[Eric Kettenburg]

Far be it from me to question your business sense, and I do understand the attractiveness of making something that could be used to retrofit about a bazillion stocks!  I get it.  The lock looks great and I'm not even commenting (re the retrofit angle) about 'guts' or the externals.  My concern is trying to cover an original unmodified Siler plate when the original Siler nose is excessively tall top to bottom, and the lock plate height immediately behind the pan is also unattractively tall proportionate to the overall lock plate design (on the Siler, not yours).

Your pan alone is 1000X better than the clunky over-square Siler pan.

Also just speaking for myself since you posted this all here and I assume desire commentary (and buzz  ), I *personally* find this era of lock looks best when the cock and frizzen are juuuuuuuuuussst slightly taller than you would expect on a plate of the given size, proportionately.  Oh the humanity, in other words, the lack of absolute 'golden mean' perfection.  Again, just me.  And ditto for when the frizzen kicks forward - I don't like to see mirror angles between the cock at rest and the frizzen kicked open at rest.  I like the frizzen kicked forward a bit more in a wonky way.

My entire last paragraph is just musings, since I'm not the one putting all the work into this!

It really does look fantastic.

[Scota4570]

Is is possible to have a modular lock?  Maybe a couple of plate, frizzen and cock options?  Since the people who are this specific on the design details likely can assemble a lock, ship it as a bag of parts.  Being a Kibler product the parts will be interchangeable. 

Based on the current market, branching out into high quality parts seems like a good idea to me. 

[Jim Kibler]

I must say this has actually been fun.  I appreciate all the responses and suggestions and think it will end up being better because of them. 

Eric.  I'm going to take some of your thoughts, make some changes and see how the lock looks.  That's a really nice thing about 3d design.  Thank you for taking the time to offer your ideas and help.

Scot.  Yeah, I think you are right...  It may be nice to offer several variants of this lock.  A blank plate for sure and perhaps a couple of other options.

Thanks,
Jim

[Snowmoon]

As someone quite ignorant peeking into a complex world, I'm very grateful that Jim took the time to discuss the details of his lock's development with the community here. The more I learn, the more I want to find out and the more I appreciate seeing and handling the real thing. This year will be my third time at Kempton, but it'll feel like the first time with my eyes reasonably open to the what's in front of me. Oh, and the lock looks great, too! Love seeing Germanic parts!

[Jdbeck]

I maintained the proportions of the image and scaled it to the reported length of 5.25, and overplayed it onto of the Siler Delux Lock from Chambers with proper dimensions (Dimensions: 5 ¼" x 1").

Looks like both locks have a very similar footprint. The Kibler lock likely would work on a pre-carve for a siler posibly if its a touch bigger.   

[TimberDoodler94]

 Interesting seeing the comparison. I'm not one who understands quite exactly what differentiates a good lock from a great lock. Having said that if someone could educate me on what makes Mr. Kiblers version different than a currently offered Siler lock I would be interested in learning.  To my untrained eye it looks like the cock  screw is more forward and the base of the cock is a smaller diameter as well. I'm guessing this has a mechanical advantage  purpose in the function of the lock. If someone could elaborate what that does in comparison to the Siler I'd like to learn about that. Looks like they have dang near the same lock plate in size. Rather than just having a slightly different rendition of an already well established production lock, I think this is a great opportunity to expand on offering more historically correct locks to be available to builders. A couple other folks had mentioned this before and even though I'm quite the novice, I agree with them.