Swamped Barrel Inletting Help?

[Toddsndrsn]

A left handed shooter approached me through my dad to assemble a kit for him so I ordered up a left handed Isaac Haines Transitional kit from Dunlap's. 

Problem #1
The barrel channel seems a little off.  I started with inletting the breech against the rear of the stock.  There was a little rocking about 6-8" from the breech and I figured that it would come out as the barrel moved back as I had about 0.25" to square everything up.  Of course I was wrong.  This left about 0.1" to seat the barrel flat to bottom of the channel.

My first attempt was to lay the barrel in the channel and give it a good tap at the muzzle and a good tap where I thought the wood was high towards the breech.  After working this route for too long I felt like progress wasn't being had and I was going to scrape too much of the web out for the lugs.

My second thought was to reset the barrel in the breech and give it a good tap to see if focusing on just that area would provide better results.  My third thought was to inlet breech plug and let it ride, but that doesn't feel or seem right.  So I decided to stop here, think about it, and get some advice.

Scraped Channel


Tapping barrel at breech


Tapping barrel 6" from breech.


Problem #2 is going to be that front of the breech plug is going to be close to the front of the pan.  I might have about 1/16" to move the lock forward in the mortice which would put the center of the close to the front of the breech plug.  I don't really want to move the barrel further back due to it's swamped nature and the barrel channel opening up too far on the sides.  I don't have matching wood the even try to make a patch for the tail of the lock area.

[whetrock]

Hey Todd,
Welcome to the forum.
Both problems are manageable.
 
How much web do you have now?
In addition to the high spot 8" forward, your barrel is touching the oblique flats (diagonal ones) in the breech. You see that, right? So it's sitting on the oblique flats in the back and on the bottom flat about 8" forward. And of course it is touching in many places further up, as well.
So, if you have enough web to work with, then you just have a little more work to do to finished inletting the barrel. Don't scrape any at all from the unmarked areas. When I get to this point, I switch to a super sharp 1/4" chisel and just start working on the inked spots, paring them off. Again, provided you have enough wood, you can do this for the entire length of the mortise, and drop the hole barrel down another 1/32" to 1/16". In my experience, when I get to this final part, I find it easier to only remove wood on the inked spots if I use the chisel. Got to be super sharp though. Thumbnail sharp.  A good pair of reading glasses also helps. First bit is slow, but once you work out the motion and technique, it goes quickly.

If you don't have enough web to go deeper, then that's okay, as well. You can stop where you are and bed the barrel with acraglass, and it will work out fine.

Do you have feeler holes drilled in the web? I don't see any, but the photo is pretty small. You need at least two. One about an inch from the breech, and a second where you want to put the rear lug. A third near the entry hole can also be helpful, positioned so that the entry pipe inlet absorbs it. (On a poorboy it can be put near the entry hole, but inside where it won't show.) The web doesn't have to be thick. A lot of guys will shoot for 3/16" minimum at the lugs, but 1/8" at the lugs stills works for a 1/16" pin. It just takes some careful drilling with a drill press. You can check the web with a wire. There are a couple of ways to do that. (More on that below.)

Regarding problem #2, you don't have to have a touch hole liner, and the touch hole can touch the face of the plug, and the hole can be coned from the inside. If the lock must be moved forward to the point that it doesn't quite cover the precut area in the stock, then the tail of the lock can also be forged out just a little. Not optimal, but it can be done.

[whetrock]

I think part of your struggle in figuring out the fit in the mortise is coming from the fact you are using the tapping technique. You might want to stop using that technique and switch to using some wood clamps. That way you get smooth even pressure. Sit the barrel in gently, then clamp it all along its length with 3 or 4 double-handled wood clamps. One very near the breech, one near the muzzle, and then the other two distributed evenly. Jorgensen type work well, and won't mar the wood or barrel. (I still cover the top of the barrel with tape, to limit scratches.)

Regarding measuring the web, here are some feeler gauges I use. The ones with straight wires work well if you want to measure the distance between the top of the barrel channel and the bottom of the rod hole, then mark your depth to the bottom of the barrel channel on the side of the stock, the draw in the diameter of the rod hole, and that shows you your web. (Since they measure the depths in relation to the top edges of the barrel channel, most people just transfer these measurements to the side of the stock and just draw them on the wood.)

OR, if you want to actually measure the web itself, then the copper wire is the trick. It has a tiny "L" bent into the end. I put it through the feeler hole and catch the bottom edge. The tape will slide a little, so I slide it down and test again. It gives a very accurate measurement of the web.

[whetrock]

Finally, when you are taking the barrel out of the channel, don't pull it up from the front. That will cause it to mark the spots at the corners of the breech too heavily. Better to either:

1. Take it out of the vise and flip it over, grip the barrel and stock at the muzzle, and tap the stock on the floor gently, to get the barrel to swing out breech first.

OR

2. Epoxy a block of wood (to use as a handle) to the top of the barrel at the breech, or use a big magnet, so as to pull the breech out first.

I realize that you probably already know most or all of what I'm explaining. Just trying to cover the bases. Sometimes just having someone walk through stuff with us helps, even if we already learned it before. Hope it helps.

[whetrock]

PS: If you want to change your display name so that it doesn't use your email address, you can do that under "Profile" at the top of the main page of the forum.

[bluenoser]

Excellent suggestions from whetrock.
I particularly like his suggestion to epoxy a "handle" to the breech end of the barrel and may give it a try.
I think you should reconsider the decision to not move the barrel back.  Calculate how far back you would need to move the barrel in order to have the center of the pan 1/8" to 3/16" ahead of the face of the breech plug.  That might include moving the lock forward a tad.  Now calculate the taper in the barrel over that distance and divide by two.  The introduced looseness might be a lot less than you think.  Also, keep in mind the situation is reversed at the muzzle end of the swamp.

[rich pierce]

It’s not possible or necessary to have 100% contact end to end. If really concerned about an area where you think the inlet is too deep, get double sticky tape and stick a piece of card stock to it in the bottom flat of the inlet and re-spot. It’s good to have an idea where you’re at. One could spend days trying to get a perfect fit, shaving off 0.005” at a time, to zero benefit.

I also use drilling into the web at a couple locations to gauge its thickness. I stick the ramrod drill in the hole backward and direct measure with a wire. Breech, under-lug spot, entry thimble spot. Same in the ramrod groove where I drill where the thimbles will be.

[whetrock]

Rich, I think that trick about gluing a handle onto the breech end of the barrel may have come from you. Is that right? It's a clever timesaver.

[rich pierce]

Rich, I think that trick about gluing a handle onto the breech end of the barrel may have come from you. Is that right? It's a clever timesaver.

Yep, and I often solder a handle on. Faster than 10 minute epoxy!

[RichG]

I use magnets I found
at harbor Freight. they have handles and the barrel will lift straight out.

[Toddsndrsn]

Thanks for the input.  I drilled holes to check the web and its good. I was able to get the breech in a satisfactory position.  The stock has a lot of flex through the forward section, but it sits well at muzzle.  The barrel is loose enough in the barrel channel that I've been lifting it out from the breech first, but that magnet idea is on the list.  I'm till trying to figure out the lock though. The barrel needs to move back 5/16".  I should have started with the lock and I would have made a lot of decisions differently, or the barrel channel was cut too far forward of the lock mortise.  Worse case, I may have to eat the cost of a replacement stock.

[whetrock]

Yeah, that position isn't gonna work. It's further back than I realized from your earlier post. And I hadn't realized that the plate was already inlet, either. The gap in the barrel mortise ahead of the lock has to be filled, as well. It is too large and will collect fouling and possibly spilled powder.

I think your best bet is to go ahead and move the barrel back, keeping a good tight mortise there.
With that done, you can then glue in splines of wood on either side of the mortise, in the area that will be too wide. That will fill the gaps.

I would suggest you get a piece of medium density maple, as straight grain as you can get. Someone on here probably has a scrap they would sell you cheap, or you might get a piece from Dunlap. Pay attention to the grain orientation, so that the spline will agree with the orientation of the grain in the stock you have. Glue the piece to the edge of a piece of shelving board, so you have something big enough to handle, then rip off a couple of splines with a table saw. If the saw has a good blade, the surfaces will be good enough for gluing.

The splines will be glued to the side walls of the mortise. They probably only need to be about 1/16 thick, or something in that range. Check the gaps carefully to be sure you cut the size you need, but cut them slightly oversize.

I would not recommend you trying to taper them. If the maple has any curl at all then it will become very likely to break as it gets thinner. But a straight grain piece should be strong enough to handle even if it is quite thin. The other benefit to a straight grain piece is in matching the curl. It is difficult to match actual curl in a patch this long. But if you should be able to paint on some "curl" with stain in the places you need.

For glue for this sort of patch, maybe others on here can chime in. I've used colored epoxy for patches. I know some on here like colored wood glue. I've seen gorilla glue recommended, with the statement that it will take stain---but I have no personal experience with gorilla glue. 

To glue the splines in place, I would do it with the barrel out of the stock. I wouldn't try to just force them into the crack beside the barrel. With a long spline, I think your best bet is to glue them in with the barrel out of the stock, and hold the splines in place with a good number of clothes pins. You can wrap a little plastic wrap (food wrap, kitchen supplies) around the clothes pins to keep any extra glue from sticking the pins to the splines.  (Others may have other ideas about how to best glue in the patch, so we'll see what the guys have to say.)

When the glue is dry, then very carefully trim the protruding edges, so that they become flush with the current top rails (top two edges of the mortise).

With the patches in place, then you just need to re-inlet that area of the barrel. I would recommend you file a very slight chamfer on the bottom corners of the side flats of the barrel in that area that needs to be re-inlet. That will help you considerably as you get the barrel inlet started.

[rich pierce]

You’re getting great advice.

You might try this low-labor attempt to fix the barrel inletting gap: soak the wood in that area inside and out with water. Soak it. Let it seep in and repeat. Get 2 pieces of flat steel about 1/8” thick and wide as your lock panel. Now get 2 C clamps ready and use a heat gun on that area as if you were blushing an aquafortis stain. Heat the barrel too. Pop the barrel in, put the steel flat bars on the lock and side plate side, and screw those C clamps tight squeezing the flat bars together until the wood it tight against the barrel. Leave overnight. It might do it.

Breech issue: A friend of mine posted on another forum pictures of the breeches of many military muskets such as the Brown Bess. There were many examples of the breech plugs hogged out for a touchhole that was located as much as perhaps 3/16” behind the breech face. It looks like they drilled the touch hole through the barrel wall and into the side of the breechplug. Then pulled the plug and used a bigger drill then files to hog out a smooth channel to the powder chamber. This was more dramatic than a simple filing job. I’ve not tried it so can’t recommend it from experience.  Today we’d worry about the exposure of the threads of the breechplug. But the examples weee many.

[HSmithTX]

One minor piece of advise, do everything you will want to do to metal pieces before inletting.  For the lock, get it filed flat, edges finished and angles filed etc, get the lock plate at least in it's finished condition or you won't have any metal left to do so without unsightly gaps in your lock inlet if you inlet a rough cast lock plate.  Buttplate, trigger plate, trigger guard, tang, too. You might be shocked how much these things change dimensionally from rough castings to finished parts.  Same for the barrel, do all your draw filing and sanding before inletting.  The barrel is far less critical than the other parts, it's fairly hard to move more than a few thousandths per side draw filing and sanding all the machine marks out of a barrel but it does change.

[Toddsndrsn]

I've been exchanging emails with Dunlap's and it's normal for this kit and they recommended drilling into the breech plug.  So I am back at it.  Drafts filed on breech plug and tang, making slow progress.  I'm going to put some of your recommendations to good use once I get the barrel in and see whats going.  I appreciate everyone's input and advice.

[Waksupi]

I'm not sure what people are seeing here on the lock inlet. What I see is the lock inlet needs completed to full depth, and if the bolster isn't flush to the barrel, then do some filing or belt sander work on the bolster to fit things flat together. Some of the advise I see doesn't make sense.

[whetrock]

Hi Waksupi,
Yes, you are correct that the lock is not fully inlet. The photo shows that.
The issue discussed was the fact that the touch hole location (as defined by the center of the pan) was going to come right into the side of the breech plug.
The other issue that was discussed had to do with moving a swamped barrel backward after it had been inlet. Doing so causes a gap to develop to the left and right of the barrel. Moving the barrel back was one suggested option for dealing with the touch hole location issue. Another was to make modifications to the plug.

[B.Habermehl]

You’re getting great advice.

You might try this low-labor attempt to fix the barrel inletting gap: soak the wood in that area inside and out with water. Soak it. Let it seep in and repeat. Get 2 pieces of flat steel about 1/8” thick and wide as your lock panel. Now get 2 C clamps ready and use a heat gun on that area as if you were blushing an aquafortis stain. Heat the barrel too. Pop the barrel in, put the steel flat bars on the lock and side plate side, and screw those C clamps tight squeezing the flat bars together until the wood it tight against the barrel. Leave overnight. It might do it.

Breech issue: A friend of mine posted on another forum pictures of the breeches of many military muskets such as the Brown Bess. There were many examples of the breech plugs hogged out for a touchhole that was located as much as perhaps 3/16” behind the breech face. It looks like they drilled the touch hole through the barrel wall and into the side of the breechplug. Then pulled the plug and used a bigger drill then files to hog out a smooth channel to the powder chamber. This was more dramatic than a simple filing job. I’ve not tried it so can’t recommend it from experience.  Today we’d worry about the exposure of the threads of the breechplug. But the examples weee many.

We tend to get really over excited about breech face “violations” nowadays. I’ve seen notches in every original breech plug I’ve seen pulled. Just remember the notch in the breech face shouldn’t ideally go much past the center of the plug face. This way using a breech scraper cleaning the barrel it won’t try to grab like a screwdriver in the notch. A small benefit, when you pour powder down the barrel it will naturally pack in behind the touch hole liner.  BJH

[recurve]

you should  draw file the barrel then retry any hi spots need to remove the high wood with a scraper till the barrel sits flush

[smylee grouch]

If you only move the barrel back 1\16 th of an inch to   get   the pan in the right place I'm thinking the gap your worried about will be very small. I would  do  that before buying a new stock as moving it back will only cost you an hour,s work and no cash. Save the " shavings " from your spoke shave if you think you need a patch.

[Top Jaw]

If after moving the barrel to the rear, you need just a tad more room - you can use a Dremel to take some material off the inside front of the pan and widen it, which will move the pan centerline forward.  This will move the touch hole liner location a skoch forward as well.  Maybe up to a 1/16” in a pinch. 

[smylee grouch]

What size touch hole liner were you going to use? Would using a smaller dia. liner help?

[c deperro]

I lay out for a 1/4'' touch hole 3/16'' in front of the breach plug and mark it on the barrel. Your barrel has to be moved back until that mark lines up with the center of the pan.

[Daryl]

You can also move the pan's cutt-out forward by about 1/8" of even a bit more, if you want or need that, using a dremel or chisels.

[Ky-Flinter]

Hey Todd,

Below is a picture of the lock and breech area of a rifle I built 20+ years ago.  It's was a Dunlap Isaac Haines kit with a 38" .50 caliber "B" weight swamped barrel.  BTW, Dunlap's statement that this situation is "normal" is baloney.  Their lock/barrel breech positioning is flawed and many of us here have fought the fight you are having now.  I didn't want to notch my breech plug either, so I moved my barrel back a full 1/4" as can be seen in the picture.  I used a 5/16" Whitelightenin liner located just in front of the breech plug.  As you can see in the picture the touchhole is still a little forward of the center of the pan, but that has never caused any problems on targets or deer.  And the gap that resulted from moving the barrel back was nearly unnoticeable.  But if it is bothersome to you, the technique Rich mentioned earlier for "tightening" the wood around the barrel will work.



As for the problems with inletting the length of the barrel, remember the barrel holds the fore end wood in place, not the other way around.  I wouldn't take any more wood off the barrel channel at the breech yet.  The marks there look like they could be false witness marks from lifting the barrel from the muzzle.  I would use a ruler/straight edge to check the bottom barrel channel flat to make sure you haven't already removed more wood there than necessary.  If so, that's an easy fix with Acra-glas.  Also, I'm curious, when the barrel is in the stock and seated as it should be at the breech, how much does the fore end of the stock need to move to line up where it should be on the barrel?

Hang in there, you'll get this sorted out.

Ron