Has anyone converted a Kibler SMR to percussion?

[okawbow]

What hammer did you use? A friend wants me to convert his SMR Ketland lock to drum and nipple percussion. I’ve ordered a spare lock parts set and will make a drum with 5/16”x32 threads and would like to order a hammer to do the conversion.

[Scota4570]

I made my lock from scratch. It seemed like pitty to convert such a fine flintlock.   The hammer has a 1.5" throw.  It is one from TRACK.
 https://www.trackofthewolf.com/Search.aspx?search=hammer 

I have no idea if a Kibler tumbler will have the square in the correct orientation for either of these hammers.  Or, if the square in the hammer is undersized enough for fitting to the tumbler.  One thing I'd do different is to omit the clean out screw.  IT serves no purpose.  Adding it makes the drum wider than it need to be.  I used the existing liner threads for the drum. 
 

[okawbow]

Thanks! I think I need a hammer without the hole cut.

[Daryl]

Once the nipple is installed, then measuring for throw would be easier.
I think the hammer on the right might be a good choice.

[oldtravler61]

  I've tried to talk Jim into making a drop in conversion. Sure have seen a lot of requests for them. But so far its not gonna happen.

[L Meadows]

I’ve been hoping Jim would offer a percussion option, I mention it about every time he posts, and others have shown interest, but he seems to have no interest in percussion. I would order a percussion SMR kit today if one was available.

[Scota4570]

I can understand the reluctance to provide a drop in percussion kit.  There are some issues.

Clocking the drum is not  as simple as it sounds.  I see no good  way to make that work without a lathe to trim the drum shoulder.  I can envision guys over torquing those little 32 TPI treads and compromising them.  The drum then shoots off the gun. 

The liner needs to be pulled.  Not everyone will do it cleanly. 

The drum must fit the plate properly.  If it does not the threads can fatigue and cause the drum to shoot off the gun.  When someone get injured who pays the lawyers? 

Drum conversion is about the worst way to make a percussion gun.

I like side slappers.  The drum is eliminated.  The nipple rests right on the powder.  Reliability is excellent.  But, who makes 5/16-32TPI nipples?  So, any such conversion would require a new barrel,  or making specialty nipples.   

I like to do puzzles and to be different. Practicality is not a concern.  I did use quality steel and fitted it all as perfectly as I possibly could. 

[L Meadows]

Im not interested in a drop in kit, im holding out hope that Jim will eventually make percussion a factory option.

[Scota4570]

That would be better.  If the breech plug and bolster were one machined piece most of the safety issues vanish.  Also if it were made as a side slapper that would be really cool.  That would require barrels made with 1/4 x 28 TPI threads, no biggie.  They make vent liner that size too.  My understanding is that his plate is too full already. 

[bama]

The drum and nipple design is really a poor design overall from a strength standpoint. The only way that I have found that works for me is to use a blank drum that does not have the nipple drilled. That way the drum can be installed and properly fitted to the barrel. Then the nipple and the hammer cup can be lined up and the nipple drilled.

Many of the small diameter “skinny barrels” being made today would probably be iffy for barrel wall thickness for a drum and nipple arrangement. I have seen a few poorly fitted drums come off. They come off like a bullet and can cause serious injury. Luckily no injuries on either of the mishaps. I have seen the threads crack on a drum from the drum not being properly fit to the lock plate. A gap was left between the bottom of the drum and the lock plate. Over time the force of the hammer hitting the nipple fatigued the threads on the drum stress cracked. Fortunately the shooter noticed the rifle started spitting powder back at his face when the rifle was fired.

There are many reasons for Jim to avoid a conversion. If you convert one yourself please consider barrel wall thickness, good fit up, good thread fit and a good fit of drum to lock plate.

Be safe

[okawbow]

I agree that a drum is not ideal. However, there were probably millions of them used, and they are historically correct on most conversations. I make the drums myself, and take pains to have a good, tight fit of the threads, and contact with the plate. I also leave the wall thickness of the drum threaded part as thick as practical while still getting reliable ignition. I use a nipple with the threads cut off to find the best position on the drum. I can super glue that to the drum once the hammer sits square and straight, and then mark the angle and punch the drum through the nipple to locate the threaded hole. I also may need to adjust the mainspring strength on some flintlocks so it doesn’t hit too hard.

[L Meadows]

Find it  odd that the rifle used as the inspiration for the SMR kit was a percussion rifle!

[bluenoser]

I do not believe that is correct.  I believe stronger influence came from a sister rifle - the McBee rifle - which is flint and has a lock and panel similar to those of the Kibler SMR.

[Bob Roller]

+a $315 lock billed separately? Did anyone buy one? I thought the lock had to be a low$ thing no matter how finely crafted.
That was the reason so many of my locks went to Germany.They didn't let $5 stop their gun making projects.
In the 1960's my 2 favorite muzzle loaders were a semi military Whitworth and a Len Meadow plain as a fence post SMR that was a flintlock.
The Whitworth was a 451 target rifle with a military style stock,Alex Henry barrel,Brazier "4 pin" lock and Whitworth patent sights.
The SMR made by Len Meadows in Shady Spring WVa had a 45 caliber,44 inch barrel and trim from a wrecked antique Bill Large gave me when I ordered the barrel.I think someone on this forum may own the SMR and I think the Whitworth went back to England,It has #C760on it.
Bob Roller

[hudson]

When using a drum and nipple I make the drum from grade 5 or 8 bolts. I extend the breach plug that has a chamber and thread the drum into it so I can get more threads, no not like CVA. At friendship through the years when on the line there were three occasions that drums blow out thankfully no one was hurt. On small barrels were a 1/2 inch drum is used the nipple which has a ¼ shank extends half way into the through channel to the powder charge something to think about. On the one ½ inch did there wasn’t an ignition problem.

[Scota4570]

The description of the Whitson rifle says it likely made as flint and converted to percussion later. 

[stan57]

  I've tried to talk Jim into making a drop in conversion. Sure have seen a lot of requests for them. But so far its not gonna happen.

He hinted in his live youtube Q&A last month he MIGHT offer one:



...fast forward to 19:35...

[oldtravler61]

  Stan57 yes he did and I'm glad Bama and others chimed in. Personally I'll stay with my flintlocks. But there are a lot of people who want Jim's SMR in percussion.

[stan57]

  Stan57 yes he did and I'm glad Bama and others chimed in. Personally I'll stay with my flintlocks. But there are a lot of people who want Jim's SMR in percussion.

Mike, My whims blow with the wind, and the wind is in the flintlock direction now. That being said, I'll pounce on a caplock SMR like a duck on a junebug.

[L Meadows]

The description of the Whitson rifle says it likely made as flint and converted to percussion later.

That makes it even worse, surely if they converted one then Jim could do it now!😂😂😂😂😂😂

[alacran]

+a $315 lock billed separately? Did anyone buy one? I thought the lock had to be a low$ thing no matter how finely crafted.
That was the reason so many of my locks went to Germany.They didn't let $5 stop their gun making projects.
In the 1960's my 2 favorite muzzle loaders were a semi military Whitworth and a Len Meadow plain as a fence post SMR that was a flintlock.
The Whitworth was a 451 target rifle with a military style stock,Alex Henry barrel,Brazier "4 pin" lock and Whitworth patent sights.
The SMR made by Len Meadows in Shady Spring WVa had a 45 caliber,44 inch barrel and trim from a wrecked antique Bill Large gave me when I ordered the barrel.I think someone on this forum may own the SMR and I think the Whitworth went back to England,It has #C760on it.
Bob Roller

$315 today, was worth $37.63 in 1970.