Gain twist rifleing

[hortonstn]

Do these require more or less of a powder chg in 45 and 54 caliber?

[Daryl]

That would likely depend on the barrel itself. Trial and experimentation is what finding it's load is all about.

[recurve]

to get more info call Bobby Hoyt or Brad of Cabin Creek( he uses colerain barrels some gain twist)

In short maybe  My Hoyt  54 shot nice with 70 grns 3f
my barrel brown 36 inch gain twist straight barrel ,my son's is the blue   a rebore to 54 gain twist from a great plains 50
the load workup and sight adjusted to hit center clean barrel high 3 same hole moved sight hit center my load work up for my 54

Yes for my 50 Hoyt made gain twist instead of my usual  70 grns of swiss 3f it took 80 but groups nicely hoyt 50 gain twist 38inch B weight swamped barrel rifle under 7pounds  below load workup targets (note shot much flatter than my .50 1-56 hoyt barrels)

[Jeff Murray]

I have a Hawken with a Hoyt barrel that has gain twist.  It is very accurate shooting from 90 to 140 grains of 2FF powder in 58 caliber.  I use it exclusively for hunting large game so have not experimented with lesser charges.

[Daryl]

Do these require more or less of a powder chg in 45 and 54 caliber?

Require for what? The barrel's BEST possible accuracy? To find that, will take "some" testing.
A good place to START is a ball .005" under bore size and a 10 ounce patch. That is pretty much the starting combination for
us up here in the bush.
I would add to that, 60gr. 3F for .45 and 75 to 85gr. of 2F in .50 and 80 to 85gr. 2F .54 - to start.
All testing at 50yards or further and all fired patches in good enough condition to re-use with no accuracy loss.
These are for a water based lube and target shooting. I might add 5 or 10gr. for a hunting load, to start if using an oil or grease lube.
Any change to the above, would be one step at a time, powder, patch thickness or ball diameter.
In patches thicker, not thinner. Ball diameter, larger not smaller. Powder charge, heavier not lighter.
If patches are cut or burned, likely the crown needs smoothing.  I have never had a new barrel that is nicely smooth in the crown to cut patches - NEVER.
Perhaps I am the only one to ever receive barrels with smoothed lands?
I did have a barrel that required 12 ounce denim to prevent 'worn-out' patches. That was due to the roughness of the lands. I was using a ball that was .008" under bore size, with those
.030" patches. Those were reusable up to 5 times.

Gain twist and choked barrels have the POTENTIAL to deliver better accuracy than non-choked or evenly rifled barrels.  It is up to you to find what that load might be.

For example, Dphar's .50 cal. McLemore gain twist barrel requires 110gr. 3F SWISS to deliver it's BEST accuracy at 60yards.

[Bob Roller]

The lands being rough indicates a poor reaming job.Bill Large would concave the lands on a barrel if that occurred and then regrind the reamer if that could restore it.The 1144 "Stressproof"he used was easy to make a barrel from and lends itself to a good finish on reamed holes and while not certified for gun barrels it seemed to be safer than 12L14.While typing this it made me realize Bill Large has been dead for 40 years and I know 3 of his 4 daughters are also and I am 11 months from 90.
Bob Roller

[Daryl]

Rock-on, buddy!!!

[Bob Roller]

I will try to "rock on"or at least hop on one foot .I met Bill Large in the Fall of 1953 and that was the beginning of a friendship that lasted until he passed away.I never had any idea that after he was 20 years in his grave I would negotiate a deal between Jim McLemore and Bill's
daughter Jeanette McKenzie to sell EVERY thing in his shop.She was reluctant to sell it but I told her that there was a good chance the next owner would be Mansbach's junk yard so she finally agreed to sell it.I know 3 of the 4 daughters are dead and not sure about the 4th one.
Bill gave me a key to the shop many years ago but I did not use it until after he was gone.Bill also taught a shop class in a local school and one day he asked me "How many boys do you think will be any kind of a machinist or mechanic" and my reply was maybe 10 or 12 and he said."There is one that MIGHT be someday".It is not possible to really estimate the barrels Bill made and his contribution to the shooting sports.He also after hearing the German 88 mm gun go off told our ordnance people he thought it had a gain twist because of the very keen
blast when it fired.He was right.When I got involved with the German black powder shooters I was asked by Helmut Mohr about Bill's barrels and I told hin they were good and that got him involved and in 1980 there was an International black powder competition at the Quantico Marine Base and I told Bill about it and a few days later I got a call from him saying he wanted to go see it and he'd just bought a new Cadillac and wanted me to drive it over and back.We had a friendly "feud"about cars,he liked Cadillac and I preferred the Lincoln.After shoot was over Helmut Mohr and his wife flew into Charleston WVa airport and they stayed with us and Bill got a big order for barrels and I was making locks and triggers and most went to Germany to Mohr Vorderlader und Antik for a long time.Had the German market not came along I would have quit lock and trigger making by 1980 and was involved with a garage that repaired European cars and I was making bronze transmission bearings in my shop as a side line.
Bob Roller
I just did  a search and Bill's youngest daughter is alive and recently became a widow,Janice June Large (Wheeler).They passed away in the order they were born and they were Jeanine-JoAnn-Jeanette and Janice.

[EC121]

Daryl's comment:  If patches are cut or burned, likely the crown needs smoothing.  I have never had a new barrel that is nicely smooth in the crown to cut patches - NEVER.

I agree.   I don't think it is a crown.  The crown angle cut is just where the maker puts the lathe center to grind the flats.  We just think it is a crown.  They all need some polishing.

[Bob Roller]

Who uses a grinder for the barrel flats? Some are made from octagon bar stock and that would depend on the drill coming thru the barrel exactly  or very close the the center.Those Bill Large made started as a round bar,drilled,reamed and rifled and then put between centers on a planer and the flats cut one at a time.and indexed using a 45 degree angle gauge.The cut was checked with that gauge as the.cut progressed.Many times when Bill got busy the planer would be left running and well off the barrel and I would stop the planer and reset it for the next cut.Many good memories have been revived today and I am glad to have them.
Bob Roller

[snapper]

I dont want to hijack this thread, but Daryl why do you think that a cut or blown patch is likely an indication of the crown needing smoothing?

I would think a rough bore, poor patch ball combo, too much powder would be the first think I looked at if I had a blown patch.  How will a crown cut a patch?   Perhaps I need to take off my blinders.

Fleener

[Bill in Md]

Crown damage to the patch could be deduced by carefully pulling the ball after it has been seated on the charge, correct?

[Daryl]

I dont want to hijack this thread, but Daryl why do you think that a cut or blown patch is likely an indication of the crown needing smoothing?

I would think a rough bore, poor patch ball combo, too much powder would be the first think I looked at if I had a blown patch.  How will a crown cut a patch?   Perhaps I need to take off my blinders.

Fleener

I would suggest a blown patch is simply due to using too thin a patch.
Holes are usually from the crown & are on the land marks on the patch. Patch too weak a material and/or crown too sharp.
Certainly a rough bore would do it, but I cannot "see" someone loading a "rough bore" and not know that is THE problem.
I had just that problem with my .69, with a nicely re-finished crown due to a rough bore. The fix was simple and made many groups between 1"
and 2" at 100 meters(109yds) off the bags. I simply went to a 12 ounce denim patch I measured at .025" with a mic and .030" with the calipers,
both compressed. The ball was .682" in the .690" bore. .682" + .030" + .030" = .742. That groove dia. is .714", so the compression was .013" in the
bottom of each groove & .025 on the top of each land. I used the same patch from this loading, for a 5 shot group at 50yards, making a 2" group. Same
patch each shot, just re-lubed.
The result was no more torn or holed patches.
I've never had a barrel that cut the patch, after I re-crowned it.
We have all seem the condition of new barrels, from just about ALL of the barrel makers - machine cut with two sharp angled corners.
This crown in a .500" bore will allow loading a .508" ball with a 10 ounce denim patch without tearing or holing.

This crown allowed loading a ball .002" OVER bore size, with a .0235" ticking patch and without using a short starter, just the rifle's 3/8" hickory rod.
Straight-down pressure with a choked up rod and in it went.


These experiences are from only 12 barrels. Perhaps the next one, if we are allowed to buy another rifle might break that 12 barrel streak. That might have been 13 or 14, just can't remember
right now.

[snapper]

Daryl, I hope you get the opportunity to buy as many more rifles as your wife lets you!


Fleener

[Daryl]

Perhaps just a "pipe" dream now?