Author Topic: Cock-Tumbler Post Fit  (Read 936 times)

Offline silky

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Cock-Tumbler Post Fit
« on: May 04, 2025, 05:15:35 AM »
Hi,

I’m working over a lock to learn some lock skills. I would like to narrow, by a few thousandths of an inch, the gap between the lock plate and back side of the cock; it’s just a bit too wide in my eyes when I compare it to some Chambers locks I have on hand. Before I start swiping away and having a “doh!” moment, I just want to confirm how this is done. Is shortening the shoulder on the tumbler post the way it’s done? Any gotchas or things to watch for?

I have already annealed the tumbler to work on the notches so filing shouldn’t be difficult.  It seems so simple but I’ve never done this so better to check with you guys first.

Thanks!

- Tom
Tom Silkowski

Offline Mattox Forge

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Re: Cock-Tumbler Post Fit
« Reply #1 on: May 04, 2025, 05:21:21 AM »
The post on the tumbler and the mortise in the cock are supposed to be tapered. File the sides on the tumbler tenon post down very slightly, making sure to keep the tapers the same. The taper is necessary to keep the cock from working loose.

Mike

Offline smart dog

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Re: Cock-Tumbler Post Fit
« Reply #2 on: May 04, 2025, 02:35:46 PM »
Hi,
There are some "gotchas".  First, always remember a lock is a system.  That means there are multiple pathways to the desired result not just one solution but it also means you can rarely just change one thing.  You will need a small flat file with safed edges so you can file down the shoulder while not thinning the square post too much.  It is not hard to do, just go slow and make sure the shoulder is even all around so the flint cock doesn't get canted when tightened against the shoulder. However, before starting check to see where the shoulder on the cock hits the lock plate.  On some modern locks only the front of that shoulder overlaps the end of the thickened bolster on the lock plate. The rear of the shoulder may actually rest on the edge of the plate behind the bolster. That presents a problem because if you move the cock inward the shoulder may extend inward beyond the thickness of the lock plate.  If you try to inlet that with clearance in the stock for the shoulder of the cock you may be exposing the entire edge of the lock plate behind the bolster.  You may have to thin the shoulder or weld steel to extend the bolster and thicken the plate.  Then you risk interfering with the bridle.  Another issue is will have to grind off a little of the end of tumbler post if it protrudes through the flint cock so you can tighten the tumbler screw down against the cock.  Finally, check to see if the bridle screw protrudes through the plate and may have to be ground down so it doesn't rub against the inside of the flint cock and make sure the jaws are still aligned with the face of the battery and not shifted inward so the flint strikes just the inner side of the battery face.  Since you annealed the tumbler, I suggest you harden it along with the sear and temper them together at the same temperature.  That assures they are the same hardness and one doesn't wear down the other.  Good luck.

dave
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Offline bluenoser

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Re: Cock-Tumbler Post Fit
« Reply #3 on: May 04, 2025, 03:18:16 PM »
This is an operation I have never undertaken and am not qualified to comment on.  I think smart dog has done an excellent job of addressing the matter.
I do offer one comment regarding safe edge files.  A file with a safe edge cuts on the flat and has little area to index against the part being filed in order to ensure a square cut.  I recommend modifying a file so that it has a safe flat.  It will cut on the edge and have plenty of area to index on the tumbler flats.  Should make for more accurate cuts.

Offline Ian Pratt

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Re: Cock-Tumbler Post Fit
« Reply #4 on: May 04, 2025, 07:25:19 PM »
Hi,
 First, always remember a lock is a system.  That means there are multiple pathways to the desired result not just one solution but it also means you can rarely just change one thing.

Very good way to look at it! With that in mind - if this is a lock with a bridle, before cutting the tumbler shank make sure there's no side play between the tumbler and the lock plate. Maybe you've done so already but I didn't want to assume you had. If there is some side play, the cock would free to move toward the plate. Shortening the shoulder without addressing the slop might result in interference. I'd check this by assembling the lock minus the mainspring. If the tumbler can slide side to side between plate and bridle, you'll need to carefully lower the bridle toward the plate. As Dave mentioned this may create other issues that you'll need to deal with like trimming protruding screw tips or having to reduce the sear width. After all is fitting well and cycling freely, add the mainspring and make sure everything is still happy. Then you can mark your shoulder for adjustment.     


Offline bluenoser

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Re: Cock-Tumbler Post Fit
« Reply #5 on: May 04, 2025, 07:42:34 PM »
No experience in this area and trying to learn the tricks.
Alternatively, couldn't a fella make a spacer washer of appropriate thickness and wouldn't that also serve to ensure some clearance between the tumbler body and the lock plate?

Offline smart dog

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Re: Cock-Tumbler Post Fit
« Reply #6 on: May 04, 2025, 09:02:30 PM »
Hi,
Ian is bang on particularly with some modern made flintlocks. Yes, you could make a washer but it will be very thin.  You also have to make sure it is small enough that it doesn't interfere with the sear engaging the tumbler notches. It is also kind of a kludge solution when bringing the bridle in closer to the plate is much neater and professional.  On a good lock, there should be no side to side play.  If there is, I'll bet there are other things wrong with the lock as well.

dave
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Offline silky

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Re: Cock-Tumbler Post Fit
« Reply #7 on: May 04, 2025, 09:15:23 PM »
Afternoon,

Before I get into the nitty gritty with more questions, a big thanks to you all for the good advice and explanations. It’s gold — a real education.

Alright, so after checking all the things you have mentioned, here are the issues and questions…

1. The tumbler post is not tapered — perfectly straight. That being the case, do I file down the shoulders without a taper? Or should I add a bit in the newly filed area to make a tight fit to the cock? Or go straight then peen the inside edges of the cock mortise to tighten things up?

2. With respect to the lock plate shoulder, there is better contact with the cock fitting closer to the plate. But the forward portion of the cock doesn’t rest on the shoulder; Dave, is this the area you talk about adding weld? Is it critical or should I leave well enough alone since there is contact?

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Tumbler post shoulders as is…

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What it would look like with tumbler post shoulders relieved…
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3. Yes, the tumbler has quite a bit of side-to-side slop between the lock plate and bridle. Am I correct in thinking I need to address that first (before any other stuff we’ve discussed), and that the way to do it is remove metal from the portion of the bridle shown?

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4. The hole in the bridle is a little oversized such that there’s a little slop. Is it worth welding it closed and re-drilling a tighter tolerance? I’m thinking there is theory and there is practicality here… do I buy significantly improved lock function by doing that?

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Thanks!

- Tom
Tom Silkowski

Offline Ian Pratt

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Re: Cock-Tumbler Post Fit
« Reply #8 on: May 05, 2025, 04:05:02 PM »
Tom -  So.... starting with a lock that has already been assembled, you may find that you kind of have to pick your battles. I don't want to suggest that commercial locks are generally inherently flawed and always need to be worked on so they function properly, but sometimes they can be improved.

So what do I mean by picking your battles? Well, sometimes you'll hear people say that the first thing you want to do when reworking a lock is to straighten and flatten the plate. What if it's bent and / or twisted to the degree that straightening and flattening is going to change relationships between say the group of internal parts and the mainspring, or between the group of internals themselves? If the lock is working well, i.e. it was assembled that way, maybe it's best left bent and unflattened unless you're prepared to do a bunch of other work.

Ideally, the plate would be flat and true, all internal parts would be mounted square to it, and your bearing surfaces would have a nice slip fit - but in truth, flintlocks can still work extremely well if there is a little slop here and there. How much slop is not an easy thing to quantify. Generally, the closer you get to the ideal the better since the lock will tend to wear more evenly and perform well for a longer time.

With that in mind, either flatten the plate or decide to leave it alone. From there, look at how your tumbler shanks fit in the corresponding holes in the plate and bridle. Much slop there will make for erratic performance. Ideally you want the tumbler shanks / axles cleaned up by turning and polishing, and you'd then drill and ream the holes for a slip fit. Sometimes locks are assembled with the tumbler axles basically as cast. If the axles are rough, the first thing to do is to clean them up. At the same time you can create smooth, true bearing surfaces around the shank where the body of the tumble r will contact the bridle and plate. This bearing surface only needs to be a small ring around the shank, not the entire side face of the tumbler.

You also usually want to clean up and polish the inside of that bridle since it is a bearing surface for both your tumbler and sear - but since you have other issues to address this may change. More on this in a minute.

From there , if you have an much slop between axles and their holes  (again - hard thing to quantify but the ideal is a slip fit) you will want to install bushings to take up the slack. I usually make them from bearing bronze. I don't have a milling machine, so to install them I use a drill press. I also don't have any fixtures for holding the plate, I just set it on a block or frame and shim it square to a chucked reamer in 2 directions then epoxy or bondo the plate temporarily to the block. Looks stupid, works great. The block can be clamped in position and parts removed and added / drilling and reaming done so everything stays lined up. 

You say there is a bunch of side play in your tumbler. Does your sear also have a similar fit? If so, then yes I'd carefully reduce the height of that boss you showed in the picture. I do this by hand filing. As you bring it down, you'll see what needs adjusted and where. In the end you want all contact surfaces polished and operating smoothly.

If however your sear fits well but the tumbler has side play, you may do better by intalling a tumbler bushing in the bridle that protrudes slightly inboard. You then fit that down until everything is tight.

Not to get too far ahead, but also take a look at the fit of your sear screw . the ideal is to have a slip fit between the hole in the sear and the screw shank, and you want the threads cut to the proper length. If the threads are cut too long up the shank, when tightened the screw will flex the bridle inward and bind the sear. Ideally you time the threads so the uncut shank stops on the plate just as the screw head snugs against the bridle. Similar arrangement with the frizzen screw.     
« Last Edit: May 05, 2025, 04:11:06 PM by Ian Pratt »

Offline Bob Roller

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Re: Cock-Tumbler Post Fit
« Reply #9 on: May 05, 2025, 06:22:38 PM »
The post on the tumbler and the mortise in the cock are supposed to be tapered. File the sides on the tumbler tenon post down very slightly, making sure to keep the tapers the same. The taper is necessary to keep the cock from working loose.

Mike
I have made them with a 2 degree taper and paralell,A dial caliper can tell you which it is and most old locks had no tapered main tumbler stem.The locks I sent to Germany had no taper.Unless the hammer is very soft they won't wobble after years of use.
Bob Roller

Offline Clint

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Re: Cock-Tumbler Post Fit
« Reply #10 on: May 06, 2025, 01:27:22 AM »
Bear in mind that 81 &19 century locks were made with hand made files and they were made quickly. We are used to a degree of tolerance that is an order of magnitude beyond the Birmingham lock makers.I really like locks that click and snap and make a lot of sparks. but I like to remind myself that we are not talking about gas-turbine engines, these things are banging a little rock against a piece of steel to light off a cap full of black powder. That's my devils advocate paragraph, now we can look for ways to tighten up the lock with some hand tools. First get some copper or brass vise jaws. Take the lock apart and blacken the tumbler shank with a sharpie. put it back in the lock plate and scribe the shank on the out board side iv the plate. Now you can see how far you can extend the flats. Don't go all the way to the scribed line or the flintcock will bind on the plate. Check the threads for the cock screw and make sure you have a tap to freshen those threads. As you file the flats, you will want to check the fit of the flintcock, do this by squeezing the two together in the vise gently. You will need to pop them apart with a very narrow punch and you are now looking for drag marks on the tumbler square and the inside of the flintcock square. Be sure to protect the bridle pin when you squeeze the two together with a quarter inch nut.Once you get the flintcock down where you want it,  you may want to shortennn the square shank so it is just below the sq hole in the flintcock. Check to see that the threads havent compressed annd retap if you need to. Now you can file the bridle. Begin by gently filing the inside face just until it is clean then shorten the stand until the tumbler just begins to drag between the bridle and the lockplate. At this point I would re harden everything, like Dave suggested including the sear.The oversized tumbler and bridle holes might bother me, but the real solution would be a new lockplate and a new bridle. But think about it the tumbler is firmly captured by the bridle annd the mainspring is demanding that the bearing surfaces remain finite. Gas turbines rotate at thousannds of rpm but a flintlock rotates around fifty degrees once every five minutes or so. Put it together annd adjust the screw lengths . The final lapping can be effected by putting a coat of simichrome (tm) or other fine metal poish on the faying surfaces and assemble everything except. the springs. work the hardened parts until you can feel the drag change then dissasemble clean and do it again, until you are satisfied  with the fit. When making a lock from scratch, all of the parts can be tightly fitted then lapped in with polish. Good luck and have fun, for really good fun get a set of castings and start with hole sizes that you have total control of.

Offline silky

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Re: Cock-Tumbler Post Fit
« Reply #11 on: May 06, 2025, 02:00:20 AM »
Ian and Clint,

Thanks so much for taking the time to explain all of this and offer your thoughts -- believe me when I say it is all received on my end! I probably should have prefaced this thread by explaining that I'm working on this lock (purchased new) so I can follow along with Dave Person's tutorials on lock tuning, repair, improvement, etc. So that is partially the reason I'm getting into some nitty gritty stuff that a more experienced builder might have the wisdom to leave as is or approach differently. I made a new frizzen spring, removed the pan bridle, drilled a new frizzen, covered up the sear spring hole, made a one-position sear out of what was a three-position sear tumbler. And there's more to come. Since starting this project my gas welding skills have gone from "you call that welding?" to "not bad!" -- that skill alone is going to pay off over and over again.

For the longest time, I was intimidated by locks -- too many moving parts and I was afraid of ruining the whole thing by trying to work on any given piece of it, largely because I did't fully understand them. But it seems that being competent in working a lock -- both function and cosmetic -- opens so many doors to creativity and pursuing builds that might otherwise be passed up for a lack of parts. This project has been so very satisfying; through the experience of working on it and listening to the wisdom of guys on this board, I am gaining the confidence to tackle the kinds of issues we're talking about in this thread.

It's also prep for working on lock sets. I spent my tax refund on a number of them from The Rifle Shoppe!

I don't mean to ramble on. I just want to express how satisfying and liberating it is to tackle, with the help of you all, something that has held me back in the past but will now open up all sorts of new possibilities in building guns. I hope threads like this are helpful to others.

Again, thanks for all the help up to this point and in the future!

- Tom
« Last Edit: May 06, 2025, 02:03:37 AM by silky »
Tom Silkowski

Offline smart dog

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Re: Cock-Tumbler Post Fit
« Reply #12 on: May 06, 2025, 01:54:33 PM »
Hi Tom,
The shoulder on the flint cock looks fine in terms of where it rests on the lock plate.  No welding needed if moving it inward on the tumbler.  The level of finish on those cast parts is terrible. Despite Ian's comment about flattening the plate, I could not tolerate that level of finish and would absolutely flatten the inside of the plate and fit the parts accordingly.  I guess it comes down to if you just desire a lock that functions or do you want one that functions and is made well and correctly?  I would only bush the tumbler hole if the fit was sloppy in the plate.  I don't think you need to worry about the spindle hole in the bridle.  It looks to be not too bad.  To eliminate side to side play of the tumbler, I would remove metal on the underside of the bridle as you show so it fits closer to the plate.  You will also have to thin the sear a little.  You also may have to thin the hook on the mainspring so it can slip underneath the bridle.  On the lock you show, I would first flatten and polish the inside of the plate ending up with smooth flat surface.  Then I would anneal all the internal parts and spin the tumbler in a lathe holding a diamond stone or fine file against one side to true it and then repeat on the other side. I want flat and smooth surfaces.  After that I know how thick the tumbler will be and gage everything else from that.  On already fitted cast tumblers, I polish the post by sprinkling rotten stone on it, inserting it into the lock plate and adding some lamp oil for lubrication.  Then I turn it to lap it in place.  That polishes it just enough without taking off too much and creating a sloppy fit.  Next would  clean up the bridle, removing all the casting marks and polishing it inside and out.  To true up the inside, I hold the rear of a fine file horizontally in a vise and rub the bridle over it.  I do the same with a fine diamond stone. I fit it to the tumbler so there is no side to side slop and then I thin the sear.  I first polis off all the casting marks and smooth the inner and outer sides as well as the curved nose and upper side where the spring rubs it.  With all of those parts fitting, smoothed, and polished, I would then fit the flint cock.  I have used these procedures successfully on so many locks that I could probably do them in my sleep.  My worst cases were all India made musket and trade gun locks.  All of those had to have bushing's installed in the lock plates because you could see day light around the tumbler inserted in its hole.
   


I bush those by counter sinking both sides of the hole, inserting steel rod that fits and peening both ends into the counter sinks.  Then I melt the peened lumps on either side to fuse them to the plate locking the bushing in place.  Then I file it flat and smooth on both sides and drill the tumbler hole.  That allows me to eventually case harden the plate with bushing in place. On many of these locks, the tumbler does not protrude enough through the plate such that the flint cock grinds against the plate when tightened in place.  The entire lock plate has to be thinned a lot from the inside. The amount of work I used do on India made locks cost about the same as the price of the gun new.  I don't accept India made guns or locks anymore in my shop but they served to teach me a lot.  One lesson was, as Ian mentioned, many still worked fairly well despite being so poorly made.  You don't need CNC machinery to make a reliable and functioning lock.

dave 
« Last Edit: May 06, 2025, 02:13:29 PM by smart dog »
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Offline silky

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Re: Cock-Tumbler Post Fit
« Reply #13 on: May 08, 2025, 04:34:24 AM »
Evening Dave,

Right Click -> Print!

Thanks so much for all the info; I’ll apply all of it. The first thing I did was flatten the plate, as you recommended in the tutorial. I don’t have a lathe, so the plan is careful filing of the tumbler… does that sound right or is there an alternate method that’s better? I was thinking of rigging a tool like the one in the JAHM book, but that’s probably overkill.

I think Rich Pierce said once that he uses toothpaste to polish the spindle in the tumbler, and other such bearing surfaces. I’m going to give that a shot since I can’t find my rottenstone.

In your Queen Anne tutorial, it looks like you case hardened the plate without lock bolts drilled. As this lock hasn’t been stocked yet, is waiting til the very end of the build to case harden (no colors, just for durability) the appropriate approach?

The new frozen spring is right at 3.5 pounds opening force so I’ll be shooting for ~10 pounds on the cock… or would you recommend more musket-level strength? Reliability is the goal.

Lots of time to think about these things — I started on the tumbler and found a small crack so I’m stopped til the replacement arrives. Another lesson there: check parts over closely before starting, as my one position sear work is now just practice!

Thanks again.

- Tom
Tom Silkowski

Offline Jim Kibler

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Re: Cock-Tumbler Post Fit
« Reply #14 on: May 08, 2025, 02:57:42 PM »
I think you'll find toothpaste to be very fine.  You many have better luck just using wet / dry abrasive paper for the tumbler polishing.  Maybe go up to around 600 grit.

Offline Jim Kibler

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Re: Cock-Tumbler Post Fit
« Reply #15 on: May 08, 2025, 03:04:24 PM »
About a tapered tumbler square...  I don't think they are too common on original work.  We just decided to use this set-up as it's a step up.  A parallel sided square section works fine too.

Offline rich pierce

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Re: Cock-Tumbler Post Fit
« Reply #16 on: May 08, 2025, 03:35:11 PM »
About a tapered tumbler square...  I don't think they are too common on original work.  We just decided to use this set-up as it's a step up.  A parallel sided square section works fine too.
Agree from the few dozen I’ve disassembled. But a very early large round Dutch lock 7” long had a pronounced taper that surprised me and made me look at others more closely.
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