studying originals?

[Nordnecker]

Re: Jim’s original post. They say you can take a horse to water, but you can’t make him drink. This is so true. I am not as keenly interested in long rifles as I once was. I have many interests and tend to completely immerse myself in whatever the current one is.
I have worked on many historical buildings. I am always surprised at how little the people in historical societies or interest groups know about actual construction techniques. I am always trying to find detailed answers and it can be very difficult.
I am particularly interested in Virginia built products. I once took an unknown Simon Lauck smoothbore to the Front Royal longrifle show and could hardly get anyone to even look at it. I was truly puzzled by this.
I am currently trying to find info on something that was so commonplace when I was young that no one even paid attention to it. I guess it was so ordinary that it was just taken for granted by everyone. Now, it is extremely difficult to even find a picture of one.

[Eric Kettenburg]

I am currently trying to find info on something that was so commonplace when I was young that no one even paid attention to it. I guess it was so ordinary that it was just taken for granted by everyone. Now, it is extremely difficult to even find a picture of one.

AAAAAAANNNNNDDDDDD?

Don't just leave us dangling in the breeze...

[oldtravler61]

   Seeing and handling antique or Contemporary firearms is one thing. But knowing what to look for in the differences is a whole new ballgame. Being around people who really know makes a world of difference. JMPO

[Bob Gerard]

I am in a small group of guys who are teaching Scouts the basics of Muzzleloading and Black Powder shooting. One of our fellows is an avid collector of antique firearms ( which we often shoot). He puts many out on a display table at the range and encourages the youth to pick up and handle them, under a watchful eye. They get to hear stories of the original long and short guns, made and used from the mid 1700’s up through the Civil War. It’s a great opportunity to allow people to handle and learn about these historic firearms and often leads to some good questions and enliven their imaginations.

[rich pierce]

Great crowd!

[Lone Wolf]

One of the realizations of running a business such as ours is that the majority of our customers have never really studied any original work and a good percentage don't seem to have an interest in it either.  I realize I come to this with an entirely different background, but find this interesting. 

I remember Rich mentioning this a while ago and was wondering what others thoughts are?  From a personal perspective I would enjoy things more if there was more of an understanding and appreciation for these things, but do understand that everybody has different interests.

So what do you all think?  Any ideas to help promote original work?

I think you will find that in any field.  Someone with the passion for something to create a successful business is always going to have more appreciation for the inspiration behind the product than a vast majority of those who consume the product.  It is no different in my line of work.  The architect will always have a greater appreciation for the building than it's owner.  It can be a little disheartening and feel thankless when others don't value our work the same way we do, but you can't let that get to you.  At the end of the day, what ultimately matters is that the customer has enough appreciation to buy the product, at least from the business man's perspective.  The best we can do it to continue to educate and promote.  Your website has a blog section, maybe you could expand that to include articles that highlight original work, etc.

Another point to make is that your kits are fantastic, but they make building a gun so much easier than the kits that have been available until now that they are bound to attract those who just want to be able to put together a nice muzzleloader with minimal effort to shoot and hunt with and would otherwise not have the interest or drive to take on building from a blank or even one of the other kits.  There are some who might look at Kibler kits as dumbing down gun building, but I do not see it this way.  I think your kits are the best thing that has happened to the muzzleloading industry in decades because they are providing entry to the hobby to lots and lots of people who otherwise would not get in.  That's not only good for business, but over time there will undoubtedly be many whose "gateway drug" was their first Kibler kit and develop the interest in originals as well as their skills from there.

Here in PA, hunting license sales have been declining for years and the aging population of those who participate in our traditional flintlock hunting season shrinks each year.  That is why I love it every time I see someone in their 20s or 30s buy a Kibler kit and get excited about muzzleloading, even if they have no appreciation [yet] for the heritage.

[Lone Wolf]

Hi Jim,
You are exactly right that viewing originals is very valuable and the question is why don't more folks do it.  Part of the answer is access.  You and I and many other established makers have no problem getting invites to view collections and handle museum specimens. Most builders don't have that access and they may view guns in museums and photos  but cannot actually handle and examine the guns close up.  I spend many days each year inspecting original guns.  The first thing I do with a historical project is seek out the originals and examine them in the hand. However, most folks do not have those connections and looking at originals is restricted to seeing them behind glass at museums and shows or photos on the internet.  That can be valuable but it rarely provides the details that make or break a historical build. The alternative is to buy the best books showing originals from many angles.  Some do that but many of those books are rare and expensive.  Those of us who have easy access to many originals are a privileged class.   

dave

Really could not agree more with that.  When I got into gun building, I was completely on my own and in fact I still am.  I do the best I can learning from pictures in books and online, but that is not the same thing as being able to view and handle an original in person.  I've had a couple of opportunities over the years to see originals at events like the 18th Century Artisan Show, but nothing like described above.  For may of us, it is not our interest in original works that is lacking, but simply our access to them.

[GumSloughMuzzleloader]

  Jim, I started paying more attention to originals because of you kits, your videos, and your posts on another forum. I read several times you stated "Study Originals" in your posts. You mentioned in several of your videos. I had no interest in buying a Fowler. No real reason other than I had a couple 12ga shotguns and a Colonial. 58 Smoothbore.  Then I watched your video on Fowler. Listen to you and Katherine talk about the history of the fowler and you showing us different styles and levels of the Fowler and they're history in the American Colonials sold me. My mind was made up to buy one before the video was over. It made my interest in originals grow. I've studied originals at online sources and I am ordering g a couple books.
  I know you're a busy man. If possible put out some more videos and live shows, and keep posting about originals and I'm sure other folks will keep it going.
 

[utseabee]

   I'm a little late to the show here but will add my 2 cents anyway. There are a lot of small shows out there and I attend as many as I can. Examples of these shows are Jim Parkers show in Alabama, the Knoxville show, Front Royal, Winchester VA, Eastern Pa Long Rifle show, and many more that I am probably forgetting. One of things that I notice at these shows is that the attendance is sometimes pretty light. The 18th Century Artisans show has a section for original rifles and they have a large crowd. Most of the people who set up at these shows are willing to share whatever information that they have learned, and many will let people handle their rifles. Several local museums have long rifle displays. I'm not sure that most people interested in shooting or hunting with long rifles really care if their rifle is authentic. Close is probably good enough for them.
     I think the Kibler kits have attracted a lot of people into muzzleloading due to their quality and price point. These people may at some point develop an interest in the originals. My question is, how do we help them develop that interest? They don't seem to attend the small shows or purchase the books.  Here in the East at least, the resources are there for people to see quality rifles. To me the resources are underutilized. I think the You Tube videos by Jim Kibler, I Love Muzzleloading, the KRF, and photos like Van post on the KRF Facebook site may be part of the answer. That seems to be the best way to get to the younger people.

[rich pierce]

There are a lot of people that visit this site. It might surprise you if you only look at posts. I think this site can be a place to introduce people to originals. 700 would be a good attendance at many shows.

[utseabee]

There are a lot of people that visit this site. It might surprise you if you only look at posts. I think this site can be a place to introduce people to originals. 700 would be a good attendance at many shows.

   Great point Rich,
     I agree. 600-700 would be an outstanding turnout to one of the Kentucky Rifle shows, most are lucky to get a quarter of that. I would guess that mostly the larger events like the CLA, 18 Century Artisans show, and Gunmakers fair hit or exceed that type of attendance regularly. This forum is a great resource for anyone interested in the long rifle. I look into the museum section quite often. I should have listed this forum as one of the online examples in my earlier post. I understand that the online resource may be the only option for a lot of people and often wonder how we could get the people online to attend some of these shows to see the rifles in person. Pictures and videos can only go so far. I do like your suggestion earlier about posting more original rifles antique section. I will get some more photos taken and do just that.

[rich pierce]

I think it helps to point out features of originals that help define their style. Architectural details, furniture used, carving and engraving that is a hallmark of that maker or school and timeframe.

I’m hoping someone will post a Soddy Daisy, a George Schroyer, a JP Beck, a Bucks County gun, a Lehigh, a Deep River rifle, and so on, so we can discuss their unique features as well as architecture that is common to all well-crafted original longrifles. I remember when I didn’t know what I was looking at or looking fur when I saw an original gun. Just thought, “Nice!”  The Dixon’s judges used to say, “needs to see more originals” without pointing out what features they weee referring to. It really helps to have things pointed out.

[JTR]

Rich, Would you suggest posting pics on this thread, the Antique section, or what?
I have a pretty decent George Weiker Attb Bucks county rifle I'd be happy to post.
John

[smoke and flames]

Here's a John Moll rifle I have if that helps 

[HomerOla89]

Another point to make is that your kits are fantastic, but they make building a gun so much easier than the kits that have been available until now that they are bound to attract those who just want to be able to put together a nice muzzleloader with minimal effort to shoot and hunt with and would otherwise not have the interest or drive to take on building from a blank or even one of the other kits.  There are some who might look at Kibler kits as dumbing down gun building, but I do not see it this way.  I think your kits are the best thing that has happened to the muzzleloading industry in decades because they are providing entry to the hobby to lots and lots of people who otherwise would not get in.  That's not only good for business, but over time there will undoubtedly be many whose "gateway drug" was their first Kibler kit and develop the interest in originals as well as their skills from there.

Here in PA, hunting license sales have been declining for years and the aging population of those who participate in our traditional flintlock hunting season shrinks each year.  That is why I love it every time I see someone in their 20s or 30s buy a Kibler kit and get excited about muzzleloading, even if they have no appreciation [yet] for the heritage.

I agree with Lone Wolf here. As a guy in my 30s new to this forum I’ve been interested since my parents made the mistake of showing me the Fess Parker Davy Crockett movie when I was 5. Slapped together a traditions hawken kit (very poorly) in college but been busy with education and life for awhile, and just getting back into it. Never fired a flintlock in my life but have a Kibler kit on order, it is the perfect bridge for someone with few skills to build up confidence to tackle a more complex or scratch build later.  I think some might overlook original work because we never imagine we’d be able to afford a fine original, but just being exposed to the work and styles can inspire what we might want to build in the future. John Moll just came on my radar from this thread, that is one beautiful rifle. Keep the posts coming!

[rich pierce]

Rich, Would you suggest posting pics on this thread, the Antique section, or what?
I have a pretty decent George Weiker Attb Bucks county rifle I'd be happy to post.
John

I think in Gun Building with each topic having its own title to make it easier aside to find discussion of a maker or school. I favor gun building as opposed to in the Antiques section only because we’d like to help builders learn more about originals and what makes certain ones different or identifiable.

[rich pierce]

Here's a John Moll rifle I have if that helps 

Do you mind if I
1) split this post out into its own new topic
2) asked you to comment on what makes it a John Moll ( if you didn’t have a signature) and what era it’s from and so on, for learning purposes?

[smoke and flames]

The barrel is signed   figure the gun is around 1820 give or take  it is a smooth rifle 1/2 oct   It is believed that the signature may have been   out at one point when the metal was cleaned  The wood sems to be original finish and it is original flint  My friend John Strong AKA utahseabee is familiar with my rifle

[Marcruger]

"When I started building in the early 70's the was so little information available. Now we are blessed with tons of good info but only have a small crowd to appreciate it."

I agree completely Jim. 

One other thing I would like to throw in is that some of the original guns were downright ugly, or had drop or dimensions to make them pretty much unsuitable to modern tastes or use.  Over time, and especially with the internet, we can scan many originals, and the pretty ones rise to the top and get reproduced.  I am not talking about plain versus ornate, I am talking about ugly and weird versus good architecture.  Is it any wonder that Lancaster rifles have been often reproduced?   Great looks as well as usable drop. 

Just thinking out loud.   God Bless,   Marc

[Jim Kibler]

The barrel is signed   figure the gun is around 1820 give or take  it is a smooth rifle 1/2 oct   It is believed that the signature may have been   out at one point when the metal was cleaned  The wood sems to be original finish and it is original flint  My friend John Strong AKA utahseabee is familiar with my rifle

Nit trying to be difficult, but just wondering what makes you believe this is an original wood finish?

[smoke and flames]

Jim
If it is a refinish on the wood, it is very well done. More knowledgeable collectors who  have handled the rifle did not question the finish other than the cleaning of the metal.  The whole rifle s very sound and sharp. I originally thought the tiger stripe was painted on with the finish. But it is not and is the actual wood grain. The stock show no evidence of being sanded. The only comments have been the signature and if it is John 2 or John Jr  I was told it is John 2 when I purchased this from an old collector friend from his personal collection. He said it was from an old collection out of New Jersey
I am tempted to shoot it

[Jim Kibler]

The thing that makes me wonder is how pristine the finish is.  Hardly any wear and not hardly a scratch or ding anywhere to be seen.  If original it’s extraordinarily well preserved.  With the metal condition, it makes one wonder…

[JTR]

Nice rifle, but I agree, even though lightly scrubbed, the metal condition doesn't match the wood condition.
Also, nothing wrong with a refinish. Lot's of guns have had them. But looks best when both wood and metal match condition.
Of course I could be wrong. Been there and done that before!
John

[parve]

Maybe people don't want to study original work because they don't yet realize how wonderful antique rifles are? I think they are very exciting, and I support any museums that take the time and space to display them so that others can hopefully share in that excitement. I suppose maybe one roadblock to the study of originals is the idea that anything worth knowing about anything can be found on the internet. I know this idea is pervasive in my generation, and maybe it's permeated its way into others.

[Eric Kettenburg]

Great lines on that rifle.  I think I'd be tempted to pop a couple off as well!

I strongly suspect that to be John jr.  In fact, is it just the photo or does it look as though there is a very, very faint hint of the typical lowercase jr following the last 'l' in Moll?