flintlock touch hole location

[Ron Hodge]

In regard to the location of the touch hole to the pan, I was always told I should set right on or close to the bottom of the pan.  Is this correct?

[rich pierce]

In regard to the location of the touch hole to the pan, I was always told I should set right on or close to the bottom of the pan.  Is this correct?

I’ve seen originals done as you describe. I was taught to shoot for the “sunset” position where the touch hole is even with a straight line drawn across the top of the pan/ bottom of the frizzen pan cover.

If you shoot from under a covered firing line it will make no difference whether your touch hole is low or high. In my experience during damp or wet hunting or woods walk shooting competitions, wet fouling in the bottom of the pan is common. I avoid that.

[Daniel Coats]

The width of the touch hole liner somewhat dictates the location particularly on the skinny barrels. Getting the wrist skinny can mean moving the lock higher and affects the relationship of the touch hole position to the bottom of the pan also. Saying it just depends doesn't answer your question but there's no apparent advantage to a lower touch hole as far as ignition.

[Daryl]

Pletch's timed tests showed low vent in the powder, at or near the bottom of the pan gave faster ignition than the common-today sunset position.
Wet or very humid climates, as noted, can pose problems with wet fouling in the pan.

[Jim Kibler]

Pletch's timed tests showed low vent in the powder, at or near the bottom of the pan gave faster ignition than the common-today sunset position.
Wet or very humid climates, as noted, can pose problems with wet fouling in the pan.

Thanks for reminding everyone of this!  Old habits or beliefs are hard to break.

[Daniel Coats]

Very interesting read (See link below) about the Pletcher tests.

https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=32160.0

More critical than the vent position is how the priming powder is placed in the pan. Banking the primer away from the vent is the least efficient method regardless of vent position. Priming level with the vent is another tested method and covering the vent is the third tested method on both vent positions. Getting the priming powder as close to the vent as possible was the fastest test variable. It's worth reading and the other articles in the link above.

[Daryl]

Yes, the "banked away" method of priming was boosted some years ago as "gospel" by one prolific writer of the day.
Interesting how actual tests with technology changes perspectives.

[Bob Gerard]

I put together my neighbor’s 30 year-old Thompson Center kit “Hawken” rifle for him.
The pre-drilled touch hole was so high it was above the pan cover!
Dang if that rifle didn’t fire every single time.

[Dphariss]

In regard to the location of the touch hole to the pan, I was always told I should set right on or close to the bottom of the pan.  Is this correct?

If I recall correctly Larry Pletcher’s testing indicates its not very important. But I like it closer to the middle or the top of the pan. But I can’t find Larry’s stuff on the WWW anymore. Maybe the censors chopped out.

[Bill in Md]

The proper location is the one that allows you to fill the pan to the top, while still giving instant ignition.

[Jim Kibler]

I’m of course involved with many blackpowder shooters.  For years I’ve preached Larry Pletchers research, but most just ignore it and continue to believe what they always have.  I don’t think science and information is the flavor of the day.

[Daryl]

A wise (old) man (Taylor ) once told me an even older, "old saying".
"A man convinced against his will, is of the same opinion still".

[Bill in Md]

I’m of course involved with many blackpowder shooters.  For years I’ve preached Larry Pletchers research, but most just ignore it and continue to believe what they always have.  I don’t think science and information is the flavor of the day.

.....as I child I would listen to the preachers tell me that Noah's flood was across the entire Earth, but I always pondered how them Bison and Antelopes crossed great Mountain ranges and Oceans to get on a small boat in Eastern Turkey...........It wasn't until I did my own research that I realized the Flood was a regional one, and that a full pan is a blessing with a properly located touch hole.....

[Daniel Coats]

I can top y'all with this one.

1973 Old West Arms muzzleloading store in Grand Junction Colorado a man in buckskins behind the counter told me with authority that the inside location of the touchhole location is what mattered. According to him the hole went through the beech plug and exited in the center face of the plug!

I wonder if that's where the urban legend of extreme delayed ignition comes from?  Just heard it again last week from a highly successful modern gunsmith who smirked at my flintlocks and said he didn't want anything to do with one of those things that go sssssssboom!

[Daryl]

Dan, that sssssssssboom was my impression with flinter as well, as it first the only one I ever saw, was Taylor's TC Hawken(ses). Seems to me he was using 2F GO for prime but it might have been Hartless and Scuvey or Meteor.

[Darkhorse]

The only sssssss-boom I've heard was the first time I shot my first flintlock,,,,,a lyman GPR. That is, I heard it when it actually went off, which was rarely. I deduced the problem to be the touch hole liner which had a tiny hole and a long passage  for the fire to travel to reach the powder charge.
Being a Tool&Die maker at the time I took all the liners to work and modified them. Turned out my mods were almost the same as a "White Lightning" but they turned that rifle into a shooter.
Today I still place my liners in the sunset position. All I use are the "White lightnings", I do drill out the flash hole a number drill size larger than when testing shows good ignition. And I slightly chamfer the hole. Because I think it helps guide the fire into the hole. I use a push type dispensor and put about 11/2 pushes down the center of the pan. I make no attempt to bank the prime one way or another because the prime can move if the rifle is carried.
I worked hard to learn to tune my own locks and they are smooth and fast. Most shots there is no discernable pause between the prime igniting and the boom. I just don't see how I can better this.
Another thing I do is work the top of the pan until zero light can be seen between the bottom of the the frizzen and top of the pan. If there is a gap the prime can work out when the gun is carried. If that happens you will indeed have slow ignition.
I've read most of Mr. Pletcher's writings on the subject and don't find most to be Practical to my personal methods.

[bluenoser]

I have apparently been doing things all wrong for the last 50 odd years
I keep reading comments about filling the pan. My preferred touch hole location is the sunset position and my priming averages 2 - 4 grains  of 4F or 3F in the bottom of the pan. Ignition in a well set up lock is fast and consistent and I cannot get my head around why some see the need to fill the pan.  What am I missing here?

[rich pierce]

I have apparently been doing things all wrong for the last 50 odd years
I keep reading comments about filling the pan. My preferred touch hole location is the sunset position and my priming averages 2 - 4 grains  of 4F or 3F in the bottom of the pan. Ignition in a well set up lock is fast and consistent and I cannot get my head around why some see the need to fill the pan.  What am I missing here?

Folks do what they’ve been taught and if it works for them, they think it must be the best way. Or perhaps the only way.

I really like a wide saucer pan like on some English locks of the mid 1700s. Do they work better? I have no proof. It just feels good to look at that wide expanse of priming!

Filling the pan may mean different things to some. If I fill it - to the brim, not like a cup of coffee - there’s a chance of grains preventing a good frizzen to pan seal. A chance of compression. So I try for the cup of coffee method - leave some room so I don’t spill. Many methods work but some are passionate about their way. Same for touch hole location. There’s a ball of fire when the pan ignites and I’m pretty sure it’s going to burn whether the hole is 1/16” left, right, up, or down.

[Bill in Md]

I do not think anyone will argue with the fact that just a pinch of priming powder will ignite a charge. It will indeed. In fact, an unprimed pan can also ignite a charge if the spark showers hit right. With that being said, if you cannot get good ignition everytime with a full pan, you really need to think about your touch hole location. If you have to "bank" your pan charge, the same applies. I have a gun that I did not build and it's touch hole location is lower than I would have have placed it, but it still shoots fast with a full pan, so it's a non issue for me.


No one is stopping anyone from loading their pans with the amount of powder that is pleasing to them, regardless of the touch hole location of their Flintlock. The issue is having an "expert" trotted out and expecting everyone to fall in line with their "scientific" findings as the proper way to fly.

We have enough of that nonsense in politics, religions and healthcare. My involvement with Flintlocks, self backed bows, fly rods and homesteading is to get away from all those "charts and graphs" ....

Load your gun, prime the pan and have fun!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Jim Kibler]

Experts and science are what have allowed us to understand the world isn't flat.  At least for some...  Further it's allowed us to have the wonderful life most of us enjoy.

In the end, I don't really mind what someone does.  The only time it can become an issue is when it relates to our products.

Just the other day, I was in a neighboring town and a scraggly old fellow had a big magnetic sign on his car door that read:

If you believe in science you are a moron.
If you follow science you are a fool.

All I could do is shake my head...

[smylee grouch]

So a fellow shooter came to me with his new gun. He had gotten the liner in so low the hole was about 25% below the bottom of the pan. It still worked but the hot gasses eroded a divot right in that area and he would build up a lot of fouling in front of the vent hole.. He then deepened the pan about an 1\8 inch which helped a lot. 

[Scota4570]

In regard to the location of the touch hole to the pan, I was always told I should set right on or close to the bottom of the pan.  Is this correct?

It does not matter.

[Bill in Md]

Experts and science are what have allowed us to understand the world isn't flat.  At least for some...  Further it's allowed us to have the wonderful life most of us enjoy.

In the end, I don't really mind what someone does.  The only time it can become an issue is when it relates to our products.

Just the other day, I was in a neighboring town and a scraggly old fellow had a big magnetic sign on his car door that read:

If you believe in science you are a moron.
If you follow science you are a fool.

All I could do is shake my head...

So long as "science" supports reality, then it can be useful. Sadly "science" is often an agenda driven vehicle for a desired outcome, and when it becomes that way, it becomes little more than a bludgeon to be used against those who question it's bias.......As a Christian teacher I take a lot of heat when I agree with the "science" that suggests that the Earth is millions of years old, because it is. This reality does not go against the Reality of Creation, but rather underpins it......I use this example to point out that some "science" can be taken to the bank and not to guide the thread into a debate about theology. 

Now, to get back to the topic. I could care less if some Black Powder "expert" comes up with a hypothesis about the speed of ignition based on his clinical results ,regardless if some want to call it "science" and foist it upon everyone they meet....I am a retired Electrical Contractor/Engineer and have had a life-time of charts, graphs, theories, calculations and the science of Electromotive Force to deal with.....With all due respect, re-creating 18th century weapons ain't rocket science. It is basically folk art, and anyone with a shoe box full of hand tools and a good eye can stock a rifle that is beautiful and that can produce years of wonderful enjoyment . I took up building years ago to get my mind off real science....It fascinated me that before the advent of electricity, fossil fuels, and now CNC machines, slow motion cameras and the internet, weapons were being crafted that provided the very security of men who built them, along with food for the table......I wonder if those fellows were as worried if their buddies had their pans fully charged as some here are?..............

[Jim Kibler]

I have to assume you are referring to Larry as the "expert".  I don't think he has "foisted" it on anybody.  He has simply done actual testing to try to sus out several aspects of flintlocks and how they relate to ignition speed.  He's presented his testing methods, the data and left it at that.  I would think people ought to be grateful for his free research.  There's no agenda or "hypothesis" involved.   Anybody can take it or leave it.   

[Bill in Md]

I have to assume you are referring to Larry as the "expert".  I don't think he has "foisted" it on anybody.  He has simply done actual testing to try to sus out several aspects of flintlocks and how they relate to ignition speed.  He's presented his testing methods, the data and left it at that.  I would think people ought to be grateful for his free research.  There's no agenda or "hypothesis" involved.   Anybody can take it or leave it.

I did not accuse him of foisting his findings on others at all. I am sure he is a fine fellow, but I simply could care less about his testing as I have the Free Liberty and the ability to test for myself and draw my own conclusions just as he has .....I reserved the accusation of "foisting" for those who want to rob me of that Free Liberty by trying to convince me that their way or belief is the one I have to follow  ...........