Author Topic: flintlock touch hole location  (Read 3762 times)

Offline Jim Kibler

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Re: flintlock touch hole location
« Reply #25 on: June 02, 2025, 02:15:56 AM »
So being an "engineer" I assume you have some kind of a test rig as he does to accurately time ignition speed?   ;)

Offline rich pierce

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Re: flintlock touch hole location
« Reply #26 on: June 02, 2025, 02:20:59 AM »
Let’s stay on topic which is not philosophy or individual views on liberty or science or whatever else.

Please feel free to share your own studies or anyone else’s, or what you think is best, for ignition. That’s the topic here.
Andover, Vermont

Offline Eric Kettenburg

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Re: flintlock touch hole location
« Reply #27 on: June 02, 2025, 03:04:44 AM »
The vast majority of antiques I've had here that have not been converted and are original flint tend to carry vents lower than the 'sunset' position most popular today.  Some are quite low.  I think this is the reason that many old flintlocks that are still flintlocks (again, non-converted) will display a somewhat eroded 'V' or 'U' right down at the bottom of the pan (at the center), extending downward angularly into the bolster material.

Also, most carry a filed groove in the bottom of the frizzen angled inward from the barrel contact side of the pan cover toward the center of the pan cover.  Was this done to accommodate vents in a higher position ('sunset') or was it an attempt to relieve the underside of the pan cover to ensure the metal of the pan cover underside - and potential condensation - was as far removed from the priming as possible?  Could be both.
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Offline rich pierce

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Re: flintlock touch hole location
« Reply #28 on: June 02, 2025, 03:11:24 AM »
Eric, I’ve got an original New England militia gun that has that eroded V at the bottom of the pan and a very low touch hole. I’m admitting I’m skeered to try it. Is it possible that this reduced self-priming? Just an idea that popped into my head. Some period accounts of Boone or Audubon ( I forget) mention jamming a feather into the touch hole while loading as well. I’m surmising this was to prevent a lot of powder falling out of the larger touch holes of that period. Random thoughts.
Andover, Vermont

Offline Eric Kettenburg

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Re: flintlock touch hole location
« Reply #29 on: June 02, 2025, 04:53:58 AM »
Unfortunately I think it's impossible to determine with any degree of certainty as to exactly how large or small the vents of 200+ years ago may have been relative to what we do today.  I would speculate they started larger on average and eroded more quickly even larger.  To find really clean, unchanged examples, you've got to look at European arms and many that I've handled do seem a bit larger (again, on average) than our modern tiny 'max' 1/16" (and I think some folks are using sub-1/16").  I think (again, speculative based upon some Euro observation) that 5/64" was likely closer to average but then most all of what I've had to examine tended to be larger bores, rifled or smooth.  What was used here, however, is anyone's guess - even really clean pieces always seem to evidence some erosion.
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Offline Jim Kibler

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Re: flintlock touch hole location
« Reply #30 on: June 02, 2025, 03:16:59 PM »
I kind of believe the old timers didn't really give the touch hole location NEAR the amount of consideration we give it.  I'd expect that if it were somewhere between the top and bottom of the pan it would be considered good enough.  Makes sense since this has been shown to make little difference. 

Anybody know how this idea of the top of pan or "sunset" position got started?

Offline Bill in Md

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Re: flintlock touch hole location
« Reply #31 on: June 02, 2025, 05:06:33 PM »
So being an "engineer" I assume you have some kind of a test rig as he does to accurately time ignition speed?   ;)

There is simply no need for me to turn to a 21st century "test rig", to determine the lock speed of an 18th century longarm that I am re-creating,  as the Colonials got along just fine without slow motion videos and so have I...... A complete waste of time to me, as my years of shooting and building such re-creations have given me all the data I need to make a sound conclusion, and as I said earlier....."It ain't rocket science".  I do understand that in these days of AI, and the path of least resistance, there are those that turn to computers, CNC machining, charts, and graphs to design and build their re-creations, of 18th century arms, and I am totally OK with that even though I do not understand it.


I only wish that those who do trust in modern technology in the re-creations of their longrifles would allow me to engage in the time tested primitive technology and folk art that is my personal approach to the re-creation of my longrifles, with the same tolerance that I afford them. Sadly some of them cannot help themselves , and will not rest until everyone admits that their way is the only way, while proclaiming it under the guise of wanting what's best for us all............. ;)
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Offline Jim Kibler

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Re: flintlock touch hole location
« Reply #32 on: June 02, 2025, 05:23:00 PM »
Oh my…. You okay?

Offline HighUintas

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Re: flintlock touch hole location
« Reply #33 on: June 02, 2025, 06:28:17 PM »
Someone's comment about the liner being too thick at the hole and causing slow ignition has me thinking. I sometimes get slow ignitions despite doing everything right as far as I know. My liner is a tad deep, which would make the wall surrounding the hole a little thicker.

Is there any downside to beveling/countersinking the outside of the liner hole just a little to get the pan charge closer to the main charge?

Offline Daniel Coats

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Re: flintlock touch hole location
« Reply #34 on: June 02, 2025, 07:30:29 PM »
I use skinny barrels and more often than not trim the liner on the inside after installation. Makes sense to me for thin walled barrels.
Dan

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Offline HighUintas

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Re: flintlock touch hole location
« Reply #35 on: June 02, 2025, 07:46:08 PM »
I use skinny barrels and more often than not trim the liner on the inside after installation. Makes sense to me for thin walled barrels.

Yes I filed down the inside of the liner to be flush with the barrel wall on the inside. I was referring to the wall thickness of the liner surrounding the flash hole. It's a bit hard to describe without a picture. If the liner is installed with a very shallow countersink, after filing off the excess outside the barrel the liner wall around the hole will be thin. If it is countersunk deeper, the liner wall will be thicker around the hole after filing off the excess.

One downside to a thinner wall around the flash hole is that the flash hole might become enlarged very quickly when it starts to erode due to there being less material there to erode. So a person would not want it to be too thin.

Offline smylee grouch

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Re: flintlock touch hole location
« Reply #36 on: June 02, 2025, 08:10:38 PM »
The  " web " of the liner i think is what your referring to.  :-\ I and I know of others who have " filed " a very shallow grove up to the liner hole, Just in t he bottom to " theoretically ( sp) allow the heat from the pan flash to access the main charge faster \ easier. Does it work?  :-\ I don't know, maybe Larry P. could tell you.

Offline rich pierce

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Re: flintlock touch hole location
« Reply #37 on: June 02, 2025, 08:32:30 PM »
One downside to a thinner wall around the flash hole is that the flash hole might become enlarged very quickly when it starts to erode due to there being less material there to erode. So a person would not want it to be too thin.

I primarily use non-stainless steel White Lightning touch hole liners and they can burn out eventually. Web thickness at the touch hole depends a tiny bit on how deep the countersink is for the liner. I dread 😬 over-drilling the countersink or gouging the barrel when hack sawing the “neck” of the liner. I could go a bit deeper with the countersink and gain 0.010” or more of web thickness I guess. I know the stainless ones last very long. The look is not for me though unless a customer really prefers it.
Andover, Vermont

Offline HighUintas

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Re: flintlock touch hole location
« Reply #38 on: June 02, 2025, 08:39:27 PM »
One downside to a thinner wall around the flash hole is that the flash hole might become enlarged very quickly when it starts to erode due to there being less material there to erode. So a person would not want it to be too thin.

I primarily use non-stainless steel White Lightning touch hole liners and they can burn out eventually. Web thickness at the touch hole depends a tiny bit on how deep the countersink is for the liner. I dread 😬 over-drilling the countersink or gouging the barrel when hack sawing the “neck” of the liner. I could go a bit deeper with the countersink and gain 0.010” or more of web thickness I guess. I know the stainless ones last very long. The look is not for me though unless a customer really prefers it.
Any thoughts on how long the non SS liners last? That's what I'm using and rue the day I have to replace it.

Offline rich pierce

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Re: flintlock touch hole location
« Reply #39 on: June 02, 2025, 09:04:32 PM »
One downside to a thinner wall around the flash hole is that the flash hole might become enlarged very quickly when it starts to erode due to there being less material there to erode. So a person would not want it to be too thin.

I primarily use non-stainless steel White Lightning touch hole liners and they can burn out eventually. Web thickness at the touch hole depends a tiny bit on how deep the countersink is for the liner. I dread 😬 over-drilling the countersink or gouging the barrel when hack sawing the “neck” of the liner. I could go a bit deeper with the countersink and gain 0.010” or more of web thickness I guess. I know the stainless ones last very long. The look is not for me though unless a customer really prefers it.
Any thoughts on how long the non SS liners last? That's what I'm using and rue the day I have to replace it.

A lot depends on whether you leave the touch hole tiny at first or open it up to 1/16” or slightly larger. I’m thinking 2500-5000 round ball shots. Heavy bullets would be another story.
Andover, Vermont

Offline smylee grouch

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Re: flintlock touch hole location
« Reply #40 on: June 02, 2025, 09:30:38 PM »
I have a SS WL liner in a 58 hunting rifle that has just short of a thousand shots through it. Most of those were  at trail walks and running bore, but all with 100 grain charges. I can't see myself burning it out in the years I have left. How much and how agessive you pic your vent might have more to do with vent life.

Offline ColonialRifleSmith

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Re: flintlock touch hole location
« Reply #41 on: June 03, 2025, 02:00:06 AM »
I have always placed my touch hole at the 'sunrise' position.
Reasons,

The wick effect you get is from the powder trickling into the touch hole. Your main charge is set off by the flash, not the burning powder. When powder enters the touch hole, it burns like a wick, which in turn slows down your ignition, hence the wick effect.

As previously mentioned, a buildup in the pan blocks a low-located touch hole.

As the wood shifts from temperature and humidity changes, a low-located touch hole could be partially or fully blocked by the bolster.

It's more difficult to pick a low-placed touch hole than a higher-placed one.

When you're brushing your pan, all that $#@* gets swept into a low-placed touch hole.

If your touch hole is drilled and coned, it's more difficult to drill and vent when needed on a low-placed touch hole.

Rick

Offline Robert Wolfe

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Re: flintlock touch hole location
« Reply #42 on: June 03, 2025, 05:06:25 AM »
I think that unless you are an elite shooter, folks spend too much time on this issue. Drill the vent and shoot the gun. If you get a flash in the pan go a bit larger. For 95% of shooters it is a cop-out to blame ignition time for your poor shooting. That, at least, is one guy's opinion and we know what that is worth.
Robert Wolfe
Northern Indiana

Offline Scota4570

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Re: flintlock touch hole location
« Reply #43 on: June 03, 2025, 07:06:36 AM »
This is almost a lively as a patch lube or cleaning liquid thread. 

Offline Daryl

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Re: flintlock touch hole location
« Reply #44 on: June 03, 2025, 12:42:19 PM »
;D ;D ;D
Daryl

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Offline Steeltrap

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Re: flintlock touch hole location
« Reply #45 on: June 03, 2025, 02:08:11 PM »
I think that unless you are an elite shooter, folks spend too much time on this issue. Drill the vent and shoot the gun. If you get a flash in the pan go a bit larger. For 95% of shooters it is a cop-out to blame ignition time for your poor shooting. That, at least, is one guy's opinion and we know what that is worth.

Well....I know what my opinions are worth. In fact....my opinions, and $1.45 will get you a cup of coffee at the local convenience store.   ;D

Offline Eric Kettenburg

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Re: flintlock touch hole location
« Reply #46 on: June 03, 2025, 06:21:10 PM »
This is almost a lively as a patch lube or cleaning liquid thread.

BUTTER!!!!!

PARKAY!!!!!
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Offline Chris in SE PA

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Re: flintlock touch hole location
« Reply #47 on: June 05, 2025, 07:04:13 AM »
I made a mistake once and drilled my touch hole a lot lower in the the pan than I had intended. I was upset about it and was worried that I'd have ignition issue or slow lock times.

The end result turned out to be a very fast and, so far, extremely reliable Flintlock.

Online whetrock

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Re: flintlock touch hole location
« Reply #48 on: June 07, 2025, 06:15:21 AM »
Forgive me for being a slow to the party. I’ve been traveling for work. I wanted to add a few comments for the benefit of new builders.

Vents on old many old guns were drilled for proofing before the guns were built. We know that to be the case. And many barrels were made by people other than the gun builder. Vents were drilled before locks were inlet. So, we might expect some variation in placement of vents in such firearms, especially American-built firearms. And that’s even before considering variation in the skill levels of builders who constructed those antiques. In comparison, if we look at high-end English firearms, such as later period shotguns, we’re generally looking at every part being built in a coordinated effort, with careful planning and precision —and lot of guns with vents at sunset position. The point of my mentioning this is to note (for the benefit of newer builders) that the question of where vents occurred on various old guns is a bit distinct from a discussion about where a modern builder may want to put a vent if he/she is drilling the hole after the lock is installed.

Regarding how much powder to use, I think a lot of us would suggest a good answer would be “enough”. There also seems to be such a thing as “too much”. Most of us try to keep the vent clear of powder (so as to avoid the “wick” effect). For similar reason, most of us also try to avoid piling a thick layer of powder over the vent. But there are pros and cons to keeping the vent completely uncovered, verses having a light covering. I generally try to avoid covering the vent, but I charge and prime from a single horn, and if I spill a little too much powder in the pan and it slightly covers the vent, I don’t try to correct it. It works both ways. I’m shooting a rifle that is ignited by a rock. I’m not surprised or disappointed or frustrated if I experience some mild variation in results—the same sort of variation that the old guys dealt with. For me, it’s part of the fun. I like a nice crisp “boom”, but if once in a while I hear “ka-boom”, no big deal. If I want or need complete predictability, I’ll pull something else off the rack.

Regarding Pletch’s experiments, I like seeing them. But I’d like to see more control of variables. “Banking” this way or that seems a bit vague to me. Is he covering the vent? If so, by how much? How thick a layer? Where is the point of diminishing returns? (If he described those details somewhere, then I missed seeing them. You can point me toward more information.)

I liked Rick’s observation about vent picks. I almost always push a wire pick through the vent and into the center of the main charge before priming the pan. This is a round-wire pick that is no larger in diameter than the vent hole itself. I learned that from a mentor who was a two-time national champion. It works well for me. And sunset position works well with that technique.

I also liked Smylee's observation about pick design. I NEVER use a pick that has any risk of reaming out the hole. Picks are pushing tools. They are not digging tools. They should push powder and fouling out of the hole without damaging it. A careful review of Madison Grant's book on pouches will show you a half dozen or so antique picks. All of them look to be thin wire.

Offline Bill in Md

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Re: flintlock touch hole location
« Reply #49 on: June 07, 2025, 11:13:37 AM »
I cannot remember ever using a vent pick before priming the pan....ever. Don't even own one.Now, if on the very rare occasion I feel the touch hole may be blocked,  I will use a strand of wire cut from a piece of #10 thhn copper as a "pick".....Can't remember the last time that happened. Then again my touch holes are always above the powder charge, in a high "sunset" position and my pan is always filled with 4f powder so from shot to shot it automatically clears itself by the explosion....I never wipe the bore between shots either has I find that can clog up the system.

I will add that on wet and humid days my ignition time will slow after numerous shots due to the nature of damp burnt powder and about that time I stop shooting and clean my rifle for the day :D
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