Load development for my 45 flint rifle

[Steeltrap]

I think you're parsing the difference between load development and marksmanship.

I have a physical disability where I can hold the rifle up and very steady for perhaps two shots in a row. After that, the front sight will get wobbly as the ability to hold steady with the left arm diminishes.

It's no problem for hunting. But for repetitive bench shooting it's a different matter.

[alacran]

Daryl, the best offhand and bench shooters I know are very systematic like you and eliminate as many variables as possible, then change one thing at a time. I learned a lot while in the Gemmer ML club in St.Louis. Some by watching, some by asking.

I guess I will have to eliminate myself.

[Bill in Md]

I think you're parsing the difference between load development and marksmanship.

I have a physical disability where I can hold the rifle up and very steady for perhaps two shots in a row. After that, the front sight will get wobbly as the ability to hold steady with the left arm diminishes.

It's no problem for hunting. But for repetitive bench shooting it's a different matter.

Sorry to hear about your disability, but I am not parsing anything.....Go back and read my initial post. I clearly state that a load is developed before the sighting in process. What I am suggesting is that a sound hunting load can be developed without the use of a shooting bench, that's all. I am a hunter, and not a bench shooter. I thought I made that clear. I am in no way suggesting that a sound load cannot be developed from a bench, because it can. I am simply suggesting that there are other ways.

As for "marksmanship". That is a subjective matter. I'll use archery as an example. I shoot longbows of  my own design for hunting and target work. I am very happy to have groups that are inside of the area of an apple at 20 yards with my instinctive style of  shooting.....Those shooting off of cabled platforms with fixed sights and triggered releases expect the same accuracy  at 75 yards.

If I can get my balls to cut the same hole at 25 paces with my smoothbore without a rear sight while shot offhand with my old shoulders, I am tickled. To the bench shooter that is child's play. While I consider bench shooting to be unnecessary for working up a good load, I do recognize that it is a a skill unto itself. The many bench rifles and contests point to this reality. It is a serious segment of our "sport". In the same way that Olympic recurve shooting in the field is a serious segment of archery......Just not my cup of tea.



 

[Steeltrap]

So let me ask this question about patch lube. For example, when using Mink oil, do you melt it into your patches…or “swipe” it on one side of the patch? (The side that contacts the barrel)

[smylee grouch]

I have the best luck when my patches are saturated regardless of what lube I use.

[Steeltrap]

Took some time today and went to the range. I tried three lubes at 50gr-3F, then 60gr-3F, and 65gr 3-F. Now I didn't take any pics of the groups shot with patches soaked in SPG lube. They were all 9" or greater no matter what the powder charge was. So...that was 9 shots worthy of knowing not to use that lube.

The two other lubes were first, Mink Oil, and then Bee's wax.

The first pic shows the best 50 yard group using the patch lubed in Bees Wax, 60gr 3F. That was 3-shot, 3".
The second pic shows Bees Was lube, 65gr 3F, 50yd 3-shot 4". The hole on the lower right of that pic was from the "monster" group using SPG...so  ignore that.
The third pic shows Mink Oil lube, 60gr 3F, 50yd 3-shot 4.5" group. I also shot with Mink Oil using 65gr 3F...but the groups opened up far too much.

Now, I started with 3 shot groups using the three different lubes (SPG, Mink, Bees) at 50gr 3-F, but those groupings were miserable. Instead of trying 55gr. 3F I jumped to 60gr., then to 65gr.

But what this did show me was the rifle didn't like SPG. It also didn't like 50gr of powder. However, since I jumped from 50gr to 60gr and the groups closed.....but then when I went to 65gr, they opened up again.

So, next trip I need to see what a 3 shot group is using 55gr 3F. And if 55gr closes the group, I may need to try 57gr or 58gr just to see what that does.  I know when doing load development for those unmentionable cartridges, at times a few grains made a big difference. I don't expect big differences from BP....but won't know until I try.

[Darkhorse]

What works for some doesn't work for others. I shot this target during load testing off a bench just like I always do. I do not rest the barrel on my hand but I do steady the rifle with my index finger against the wood beside the barrel. My impact point doesn't change offhand or on game, and a squirrels head is a small target. I'm 73 and have shot enough offhand matches and game to know this for a fact.


And this is the exact bench and setup I use.



I want the tightest groups possible when I develop a load and the bench is the only way I can get that. And when I sight that load in I want to split hairs on my aiming point. Again the bench is the only way I can get that.
Don't sell the bench short. It teaches breath and trigger control and sight alignment. For consistent accuracy your form must be correct just as in offhand shooting.
What has always perplexed me is why don't most others get the same results I do?

[utseabee]

What barrel does your rifle have? Is it a rice or Colrain? If so, you may want to try thicker patches and a heavier powder charge.

[Leatherbark]

What do your fired patches look like or did I miss it?   Any burn through on one side no matter how slight causes me to re-think the patch/lube/muzzle relation.  My tightest groups always have a patch that I can re-use if I really needed to.  They'll have a brown burn ring showing the rifling imprint and no burn through.  There may be fire oozing through each groove around the patch but being equal I don't think it throws the shot off.  I strive to find really good, fired patches.

Bob

[Steeltrap]

The Barrel is a Green Mt.

I did pick up and examine about 6 or so patches. Now, I couldn't tell you if one was for sure fired with 65gr or 50gr.

But, a few had the ball sort of "blacked" in the center. I'm guessing that may have been  the SPG lube, or the one's fired with 65gr. A few had the brown burn ring you speak of with some brown showing the rifling. None were burned through and I could have reused all 6 or so that I picked up.

I swabbed after every three shots. When the barrel was squeaky new if I didn't swab, I'd stick a ball. That's when the fun began.

On my other GM barrels in .50 and .54 a stuck ball wasn't near as tough to remove. Or maybe I'm getting older?

[Daryl]

Muzzle treatment will allow you unlimited # of shots in a day's shooting with NEVER a stuck ball. Brown streaks running with the rigling are scorch Mark's of blowby flame.
Your load combination is not what I would consider a good one.
My .45 GM barrel, when using LehighValley Lube showed a preference for 75gr. GOEX. The patch was .0225"(10ounce denim from 5 yrs. ago) with a .445" ball. Short started and seated with the rifle's 3/8" tapered hickory rod. The bel. for that load was 2,240fps delivering consistent 1/2" groups at 50yds benched. Identical vel. to the rifle's other barrel, a .40 Goodoien with 65gr. GOEX, same lube and .398" ball. The bore of that rifle was also .398" land to land, same patch, same rod.

[utseabee]

The Barrel is a Green Mt.

I did pick up and examine about 6 or so patches. Now, I couldn't tell you if one was for sure fired with 65gr or 50gr.

But, a few had the ball sort of "blacked" in the center. I'm guessing that may have been  the SPG lube, or the one's fired with 65gr. A few had the brown burn ring you speak of with some brown showing the rifling. None were burned through and I could have reused all 6 or so that I picked up.

I swabbed after every three shots. When the barrel was squeaky new if I didn't swab, I'd stick a ball. That's when the fun began.

On my other GM barrels in .50 and .54 a stuck ball wasn't near as tough to remove. Or maybe I'm getting older?

In my opinion, you may want to go with a .445 ball with your patch or switch to a .020-.022 patch  with your .440 ball.

[Steeltrap]

Muzzle treatment will allow you unlimited # of shots in a day's shooting with NEVER a stuck ball. Brown streaks running with the rigling are scorch Mark's of blowby flame.
Your load combination is not what I would consider a good one.
My .45 GM barrel, when using LehighValley Lube showed a preference for 75gr. GOEX. The patch was .0225"(10ounce denim from 5 yrs. ago) with a .445" ball. Short started and seated with the rifle's 3/8" tapered hickory rod. The bel. for that load was 2,240fps delivering consistent 1/2" groups at 50yds benched. Identical vel. to the rifle's other barrel, a .40 Goodoien with 65gr. GOEX, same lube and .398" ball. The bore of that rifle was also .398" land to land, same patch, same rod.

What is “muzzle treatment”?

[Daryl]

Smooth the machined crown. Thumb pressing into the crown with emery or wet/dry paper, rotating the wrist. Turn the barrel every now and then so your re-crown is even. There are lots of pictures here of muzzle crowns done this way. A lathe is not necessary. I do not currently have access to my pictures. You could search here for muzzle crowns.
The smoothly radiused crown allows a snug patch and ball to form into the muzzle without any cutting of the patch no matter how tight the combination is.
Tight combinations allow thicker patches which hold more lube & improve accuracy and clean shooting.

[Steeltrap]

Thanks Daryl and all else for your help.

Here's the "best" existing pic of the muzzle. Now, that's not a factory machine cut as I took the original 42" barrel and cut it down to 30". I then squared it, and using the "thumb" method, radius the end.

I don't get any patch cutting during loading....nor any cutting after shooting.

[Steeltrap]

Doing a lot of searching and reading on lube types. Has anyone ever tried Mineral Oil for patch lube with any success?

[Steeltrap]

Had time (finally) to get back at it today. I collected 11 patches for examination. One of the 11 was cut (2nd pic). I'm thinking it got cut during loading, or possibly just a weak spot in the patch.



So, this was the results using Mineral Oil soaked patches, and all at 50yds.

This one is a 4 shot group. 55gr 3F. But after 2 shots I noticed my front rest was not locked. So it had some minor wiggle in it.


So, I tightened it up, and thought I shot 3 more.....but only 2 shot group. (Sometimes my brain just freezes) Bu this time the group was better.....but then, only a two shot group.


Then I went to 60gr 3F and the groups opened up to the 2.5" spread


Then I thought I'd try the half-way point from 55 to 60gr and went to 58gr 3F. That group did not tighten up.


So, the rifle appears to like 55gr the most. The big plus of the Mineral Oil was I didn't have to swab the barrel once and had no issues with loading another PRB. The last went down as easy as the first.  I'll get back out again and perhaps give a different lube a try. Next time I also want to run the load over my chronograph to determine the velocity. I haven't adjusted the sights yet as I'm not settled on the load at this point.

[Daryl]

Are you looking for a target shooting load, or strictly a hunting load?

[Steeltrap]

I’m a hunter. I want the rifle to shoot the smallest groups it can with a velocity fast enough to punch into a whitetail at 100 yards.

[Daryl]

Your muzzle picture looks great. Have you tried Neetsfoot Oil or Track's Mink Oil?
I would like to see 65gr. to 75gr. 3F or 75gr. to 85gr. 2F being used for a 100yard .45 deer rifle. I personally like more powder and am not a minimalist in any way. If 3F is not giving you the accuracy you want (as it appears) I would most certainly try 2F. At the same vel. produced, it will develops lower pressure. Usually takes up to 10gr. MORE 2F powder to achieve the same accuracy and poi. when seeking a good load. In this case, 2F might be your salvation. When shooting from the bench with a flinter, I try to watch the ball go into the target through the sights.
I find a load I am happy with, and use that at all ranges.

[Steeltrap]

I’ve tried Tracks Mink oil. The Mineral oil works as god and maybe better. Never thought of going with higher charges of 2F….so I’ll give that a try next time 

Thanks for your help.

[Steeltrap]

First...thanks for the "2F tip".  I finally got back to the range and started with a charge of 50gr 2F, then went to 55gr 2F, and a final charge of 60gr 2F.

The 50gr gave me the just under 2" I had been getting with the best 3F powder charge. The 60gr 2F charge opened the group to very large (4"+) groups. The 55gr of 2F, .440rb, .15 patch, and (yes) the not usually seen mineral oil lube gave me the group as shown in the pic below.  I did like the MO as swabbing was a once in a while thing.

As the morning turned into higher temps...... I didn't file the front sight down a bit more. Next outing I will work on the sites to get POA and POI to equal. That, and bringing my chronograph for ball speed will be the next outing. And for the next trip I'll see how it groups at 100 yards. I am interested in seeing what velocity I get from the 30" barrel.

And as a side note, the 12" of barrel I cut from this one I made a flint pistol. The interesting part of that project is the best 25yd groups I get is using 60gr of 3F.

[Daryl]

Even though you may not be cutting, nor burning patches, that is just a START on developing an accurate load.
Now, you need to try, in my humble opinion:
1: thicker patching in the .021"(10oz.denim) range minimum with .440 ball.
2: heavier powder charges
3: .445 balls with .020" to. 022 patching with 65gr. 3F and 75gr. to 85gr. 2F if looking for a 100yd. deer load.

That your accuracy suffers with heavier loads, shows quite dramatically that your choice of:
ball size, patching or lube is inferior.

In my opinion, the balls are too small & the patching is too thin. Strong opinion on these two items.

[Steeltrap]

Even though you may not be cutting, nor burning patches, that is just a START on developing an accurate load.
Now, you need to try, in my humble opinion:
1: thicker patching in the .021"(10oz.denim) range minimum with .440 ball.
2: heavier powder charges
3: .445 balls with .020" to. 022 patching with 65gr. 3F and 75gr. to 85gr. 2F if looking for a 100yd. deer load.

That your accuracy suffers with heavier loads, shows quite dramatically that your choice of:
ball size, patching or lube is inferior.

In my opinion, the balls are too small & the patching is too thin. Strong opinion on these two items.

Thanks Daryl. I've heeded your advice before and the groups got better. I'll pick up some .445's and thicker patches and give that a go.

[Daryl]

Sounds good.