Load development for my 45 flint rifle

[Steeltrap]

I finally took the time to take just my 45 cal flint rifle to the range. I left all other flinter's home to focus on this rifle.

The range was busy so I took a few shots before getting my targets out.

Anyway, at 50 yards I shot a group .440 Hornady RB, .15 pillow ticking patch, Ballisto lube. The rifle shot a tighter group with the higher 65 gr load.

I've never owned a 45 cal before and my 50 cal and 54 cal loads are 100gr 2F. I haven't done a search but I would think 100gr of powder in a 45 is wasting powder.

Any thoughts on going higher......or even lower on the powder charge?  And next time I'll use some Mink Oil lube on the patches to see if they make a difference.

[RichG]

my 45 flint has a 1-56 twist barrel and I use 445 ball .018 ticking moose milk and 60 gr 3f Olde Eynsford for plinking and trail walks.
I think if you're going to use .440 rb you'll want a thicker patch. anything around 55-60 gr should work for general use.
I do use a .440 rb and .015 patch with mink oil for hunting, but it takes 75gr of 3f to get it to shoot. The load needs to have enough pressure to bump up the ball. Loads without a short starter and gets just over 2000fps. With same load and 80 gr 3f it will occasionally burnout the patch. I can' imagine any reason to go higher than 75-80 gr in a 45.

[MuskratMike]

Load development is something that I really enjoy doing. I would start at 45 grains of 3F using the mink oil. Go up 5 grains at a time after shooting a 5 shot group at 50 yards. I can't see much of a reason to go above 65-70 grains. Then change 1 variable such as patch thickness (I would use a .018-.020 patch) and repeat the procedure starting at 45 grains again. Another variable would be to use a larger ball such as .445. Once you find a load that really works, make sure it is repeatable then you are there. If all you have is 2F then follow the same procedure as before but you might go as high as 75-80 grains. People get carried away with the amount of powder they use. Good luck and show us some more targets as you find what works.

[Top Jaw]

As Rich G has basically stated, but to further clarify - if your using an oily or greasy type of lube, you will typically have to increase the velocity (with more powder charge) to get it grouping well.  I’d probably start at 65 grains with your lube, and work up to the 75 gr range.  If your using a water-based lube (window cleaner, water, spit, etc), you can drop it back to more of the “a grain of powder per caliber” range as a starting point (45 gr in this case).   I don’t know all the physics behind why there is a difference, I just have observed enough of the results in the field, and from others similar shooting experiences on here. 

[recurve]

I would add you should use a sturdy bench and rest to do load workups ,taking  you the out of the shots.
You want to find what your rifle likes, and than sight in after finding the best repeatable load

[Steeltrap]

All great advice. Thanks gents!!

[Daryl]

As Rich G has basically stated, but to further clarify - if your using an oily or greasy type of lube, you will typically have to increase the velocity (with more powder charge) to get it grouping well.  I’d probably start at 65 grains with your lube, and work up to the 75 gr range.  If your using a water-based lube (window cleaner, water, spit, etc), you can drop it back to more of the “a grain of powder per caliber” range as a starting point (45 gr in this case).   I don’t know all the physics behind why there is a difference, I just have observed enough of the results in the field, and from others similar shooting experiences on here.

I would not start at 45gr., but perhaps that is just me. Otherwise, good advice.
My .45 with Green Mountain barrel with 60" ROT liked wet(water-based)lubes with 65gr. 3F GOEX. With LHV (slippery) lube I had to increase that to 75gr. 3F and 85gr. 2F to get the same accuracy & POI.

[Marcruger]

Keep working on your load.  Only your rifle can tell you what it likes?   Are you shooting off of a rest shown in the photos?   That could be why your groups aren't super at 50 yards.  When doing load development, I hold the gun in my hands like offhand, but am seated at a bench with my front hand resting on a sandbag or rest.  I find longrifles and any BP guns shoot better when not using modern sandbag techniques.  You need to control that rifle while the ball (relatively) slowly works its way down that long barrel after ignition. 

Each .50 I have shot likes between 72 and 75 grains of 2F.  Something like a sweet spot there.  Slow twist.  You may find 3f to be better than 2f in a .45, but work with both.  As you ladder up in 5 grain increments, listen for the rifle to start to "crack".  You'll be approaching your accuracy load. 

Hope this helps.   God Bless,  Marc

[Steeltrap]

The “rest” in the photo is not what I use at the range. That rest is just for cleaning…or photo taking.

I use a bench rest “heavy shot” rear and an iron tri-pod front rest with leather packed with bean.

[Daryl]

I expected as much from your other posts here, Steeltrap.
Your .45, with best loads and patches, will make 1/2", 5 shot groups at 50yards, if your eyes are up to it.
IN this target I was working my way up with LehighValley lube and was at 70grs. I ended up at 75 as best load but cannot find that target.
Appears I was also only using an 18 thou. OxYoke patch here as well. I actually prefer .021" or thicker.

[Bill in Md]

Start at 45 grains of 3f and go up.....Every and I repeat every rifle has a different "sweet spot"....Do not  get caught up on bench results off of padded sacks unless that is how you plan to do most of your shooting. Such things are for modern rifles and paper punchers and teach us nothing about shooting long rifles.

Longrifles are designed to be shot off hand and that is how you want to sight in if you are a hunter. You will rarely find a shooting bench in the woods to take a rest on....Avoid shooting at bulls, dots, and crosses as deer do not have them painted on their sides. A blank piece of cardboard works great. Start close, maybe ten yards or even less. Get a feel for the gun. Practice perfect hold and trigger pull. Shoot till your balls touch. Adjust final sighting to that.

Then back up little by little until you can keep them tight at your desired range adjusting your charges as you go. Simple guns do not need unsimple methods to shoot very well. Do check for patches as they are the most overlooked thing in shooting. Use the thickest patch you can if your gun is rifled. Learn the difference between a blown patch and one damaged by a sharp crown and you will be set. If your patching is sound you should be able to reuse them in a pinch as they will only be soiled by the powder......Hope this helps!

[smylee grouch]

FIND your best grouping load off a good bench... Then SIGHT it in. 

[Daryl]

This target with the .40 Goodioen barrel (from Track) on my flinter rifle, shows the same load for all, except for ball diameter.
In the top left (7shots) and centre targets (5) I used a .400" x .400" ball.  In the top and bottom right hand targets (5 ea.), I used the ball from the other
cavity that cast a .400" x .392" oblong ball. Note the bench-rest grouping compared to the offhand grouping of each.

[Steeltrap]

Start at 45 grains of 3f and go up.....Every and I repeat every rifle has a different "sweet spot"....Do not  get caught up on bench results off of padded sacks unless that is how you plan to do most of your shooting. Such things are for modern rifles and paper punchers and teach us nothing about shooting long rifles.

Longrifles are designed to be shot off hand and that is how you want to sight in if you are a hunter. You will rarely find a shooting bench in the woods to take a rest on....Avoid shooting at bulls, dots, and crosses as deer do not have them painted on their sides. A blank piece of cardboard works great. Start close, maybe ten yards or even less. Get a feel for the gun. Practice perfect hold and trigger pull. Shoot till your balls touch. Adjust final sighting to that.

Then back up little by little until you can keep them tight at your desired range adjusting your charges as you go. Simple guns do not need unsimple methods to shoot very well. Do check for patches as they are the most overlooked thing in shooting. Use the thickest patch you can if your gun is rifled. Learn the difference between a blown patch and one damaged by a sharp crown and you will be set. If your patching is sound you should be able to reuse them in a pinch as they will only be soiled by the powder......Hope this helps!

Well....I dunno where you're from....but around these parts all our deer have targets on 'em. I think it was a change "darted" into their genetic code!!  But in all seriousness, I understand what you're saying. However, I usually place a chunk of blue painter tape on the target for my POA. Having a blank paper for POA doesn't work in my head. As for hunting, I usually hit 'em in the lungs.

[smylee grouch]

There are some who confuse load development with sighting in. There is a difference! 

[Bill in Md]

Without a proper load being established, sighting in will be rendered futile. Without proper sighting in and good form, a proper load will also be rendered futile.

[Steeltrap]

Without a proper load being established, sighting in will be rendered futile. Without proper sighting in and good form, a proper load will also be rendered futile.

Was that known as the "Feudal Period"? 

Yup. Once I get the load to where I like it, I will then focus on sighting it in.

[Bill in Md]

This target with the .40 Goodioen barrel (from Track) on my flinter rifle, shows the same load for all, except for ball diameter.
In the top left (7shots) and centre targets (5) I used a .400" x .400" ball.  In the top and bottom right hand targets (5 ea.), I used the ball from the other
cavity that cast a .400" x .392" oblong ball. Note the bench-rest grouping compared to the offhand grouping of each.

This post lends perfect credence to my point.....The point being that setting up a gun on a bench will not guarantee good off hand shooting since good form and the ability to hold on target is removed. Not that bench rest shooting is not a skill, but rather it is not a skill that the hunting rifleman needs to achieve good groups. In fact, it is my belief that the constant use of a bench is a handicap to good offhand shooting because many spend the vast majority of their shooting time on a bench....In my opinion it creates a crutch as it were, in the same way sights are a crutch on a hunting bow. Many times those who rely on bench rested sighting need to be near a tree or a natural blow down for a rest when taking a shot on deer.

Once good offhand form and follow through is gained, good groups will follow. The mere design of a well built longrifle lends itself perfectly to being held and shot offhand. Emphasis on "well built" is important. A long swamped barrel in a perfectly balanced stock will hang motionless in the hand and provide a perfect "natural" bench so to speak with practice. I will also add that I feel benched sighted guns will shoot differently when shot offhand due to the dynamics of the differing forms, which is why I do not not use them (benches) for sighting in a hunting gun. Add to that, I find bench shooting terribly boring and uncomfortable to boot.

With that said, your offhand groups look pretty good. 

[Bill in Md]

Could someone define what a developed "load" is?

[Bill in Md]

Without a proper load being established, sighting in will be rendered futile. Without proper sighting in and good form, a proper load will also be rendered futile.

Was that known as the "Feudal Period"? 

Yup. Once I get the load to where I like it, I will then focus on sighting it in.

Exactly!.....In my first post to this thread I thought I was pretty clear that when shooting offhand you still have to get your "balls touching" before you do your sighting in. What many call "developing a load".... .........My point is you don't need a bench to do that.....

[rich pierce]

There are novices, intermediate shooters, and those you don’t want to see showing up at the offhand match in f you want to be in the money. And old fellas who can’t see the sight or hold as they used to. Developing an accurate load using a bench is useful for at least 3 of 4 shooters to reduce operator error and avoid confusing lucky wobbles with a good load or bad wobbles with a poor load.

Many ways to skin a cat - not just my way.

[Daryl]

Could someone define what a developed "load" is?

For me, a "developed load" is one that will shoot into 1/2" at 50 yards. Anymore, 4 out of 5 is about the best I can do.
If you can do that standing, more power to you. I have found that 1/2" or better 5-shot at 25 yards, do-able years ago offhand for me, can shoot up to
2 1/2" at 50yards from a rest. That is not a 'developed load" for that rifle. 1/2" at 50 yards is, for me. Maybe I an an anomaly but I will not put up with
inferior accuracy. Accuracy shooting is all I do nowadays. I found my accuracy development worked well for me in the hunting field as well, moose being
my quarry. Big X-ring on a moose, but I know with the loads I developed for THAT rifle, the ball went where the sights were, whether rested or standing.
It takes a bench-rest to do find a load and sight it in I've found, but I've only been "doing" this since 1972, so maybe I am out if left field and all mixed up.

[rich pierce]

Daryl, the best offhand and bench shooters I know are very systematic like you and eliminate as many variables as possible, then change one thing at a time. I learned a lot while in the Gemmer ML club in St.Louis. Some by watching, some by asking.

[Steeltrap]

Could someone define what a developed "load" is?

A "Developed Load"?  I would say that the definition of a developed load is the proper combination of patch, lube, and powder charge that provides the consistently smallest group at point of impact (POI) for that specific rifle.

"Load Development" on the other hand, is the process of trying different patches (material and thickness), lube's, and powder charges to determine which combination achieves the smallest acceptable (acceptable to the shooter) POI groups.

 

[Bill in Md]

Could someone define what a developed "load" is?

A "Developed Load"?  I would say that the definition of a developed load is the proper combination of patch, lube, and powder charge that provides the consistently smallest group at point of impact (POI) for that specific rifle.

"Load Development" on the other hand, is the process of trying different patches (material and thickness), lube's, and powder charges to determine which combination achieves the smallest acceptable (acceptable to the shooter) POI groups.

 

So  another question since we all seem to agree on how a load is developed .......can a sound load be developed without the use of a padded shooting bench?....In other words, can one develop a sound load by using their arm to support the rifle at it's forearm instead of a bench pad to support it.

I am not talking about going back at 50 yards and shooting at a bull with a shaky hold. I am talking about working up a load after the skill of holding the gun motionless and a clean trigger pull  is first achieved. Can it be done?