Author Topic: Ovens for heat treating lock springs and frizzens?  (Read 1551 times)

Offline Martin S.

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 677
Ovens for heat treating lock springs and frizzens?
« on: May 20, 2025, 05:20:47 AM »
I am probably going down a rat hole.  There are some lock styles that are impossible to get, except in kit form.  These "kits" are merely groups of parts, straight from the foundry.

Here is an example of one that fascinates me:

https://www.texasguntrade.com/englishsafety.htm

I have an original Durs Egg similar to this, but I would like one I could use in a pistol build.

So, I will need to clean the parts up, then heat treat them, including the frizzen and springs.

I have seen this done using a torch, and watched the colors change, but I don't trust myself to do it right that way, so I am leaning towards getting an oven, where I can set the temperature and not worry so much about over temping or under temping.

Frankly, I don't know, what I don't know.

Any suggestions for an oven to heat treat steel?  I would also consider using it for color case hardening, if that is possible.  Although I am told there are places you can send parts that will case harden them for you.

Some ovens I have looked at go up to 2300 degrees F.  It seems that may be more than I need?  I think I read I want around 750 F to temper the springs, which is what I am most concerned about.

Any suggestions appreciated.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2025, 05:42:27 AM by Martin S. »

Offline silky

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 195
Re: Ovens for heat treating lock springs and frizzens?
« Reply #1 on: May 20, 2025, 06:00:36 AM »
Hi Martin,

I recently purchased an oven for many of the tasks you mentioned. Others with expertise will chime in, but so far I have used it up to the 1500-1700F range for things like annealing hardened lock parts, hardening springs before quenching, carburizing frizzens,  etc., and also at lower temperatures for tempering hardened parts. The precision of a good oven takes out of the equation the guess work and/or required experience of doing it by eye — very helpful to this rookie.

Not sure what your budget is, but I purchased the HS-360 from Hot Shot a few months ago. It is terrific in all respects, and the TAP controller is, too. 

https://www.hotshotovens.com/products/hot-shot-360?variant=43519281955067

I hope this helps.

- Tom
Tom Silkowski

Offline Martin S.

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 677
Re: Ovens for heat treating lock springs and frizzens?
« Reply #2 on: May 20, 2025, 07:12:51 AM »
Thanks, Tom, that is very helpful.

Offline smart dog

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 7323
Re: Ovens for heat treating lock springs and frizzens?
« Reply #3 on: May 20, 2025, 03:08:40 PM »
Hi Martin,
An electric burn out or casting oven is very helpful.  I have an old Neycraft that I do not believe is made anymore.  However, you can find examples for resale on EBay and other sales sites.  They are not cheap and the important feature is a programmable controller.  Some have the programmable controller built in and go for well over a thousand dollars.  I bought a separate controller for my plain and manual oven and the total for the oven and controller new was about $1100.  Despite the cost, if you are going to do a lot of lock making, they are almost essential for precisely hardening and tempering springs, plates, batteries, and the internal parts.  Get one with enough internal space to hold a steel box for case hardening that is large enough for large lock plates.

dave 
"The main accomplishment of modern economics is to make astrology look good."

Offline 44-henry

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1151
Re: Ovens for heat treating lock springs and frizzens?
« Reply #4 on: May 20, 2025, 03:27:39 PM »
For what you're planning, one of the smaller heat treat ovens should work just fine. I originally used a Neycraft furnace that I bought from Brownells. It had a chamber roughly 9" square, which was more than adequate for small parts like locks. It had an analog control, which worked well enough—though most furnaces available today are programmable, which is a nice feature to have (though not absolutely necessary).

In terms of temperature range, most small ovens will go a bit over 2100°F, which is more than sufficient. That said, keep in mind that running at the upper temperature limits, especially when doing carburizing (due to the gases produced by charcoal), can significantly shorten the life of the heating elements.

These days I use a large Paragon furnace with a Sentry controller, which is excellent—but expensive. If I were in your position (unless budget isn’t a concern), I’d recommend looking for a good used oven from a reputable brand. They show up occasionally at pretty reasonable prices. An older analog model may actually be easier to operate and repair when something eventually fails (which it will).

One important consideration is power requirements. While many smaller ovens run on 120V, they often draw high amperage—typically 12 to 15 amps—which can overload a standard household circuit unless it's on a dedicated line. If you have access to a 220V outlet, a 220V model is generally a better choice. It will heat up faster, run more efficiently, and is less likely to trip breakers, especially during longer or higher-temperature cycles.

If you're looking to buy new, there are some more affordable options on Amazon. Vevor, for example, offers a small model around the $500 range that looks decent for occasional use.

Lastly, here’s a link to an old thread I started about 15 years ago on color case hardening. It includes photos of the original Neycraft furnace and setup I was using at the time:

https://www.homemodelenginemachinist.com/threads/color-casehardening-a-photo-and-video-tutorial.4520/


Offline Bob Roller

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10188
Re: Ovens for heat treating lock springs and frizzens?
« Reply #5 on: May 20, 2025, 04:05:56 PM »
My knowledge of furnaces is zero as far as shop work is concerned.I have used acetelene for decades and have springs here there and every where.I have used 1075  and nothing else and so far so so good.Heat the spring to a bright orange and quench in oil.I still have some that was drained from a diesel decades ago and it works.I made my own main and sear springs and used cast ones only for frizzen springs.Same primitive method.I have never used a cast mechanism and have no idea as to what they are made from.Most of the lock makers today ise castings entirely and are dependent on getting known alloys from a foundry.Get some small files,the best you can find and detail the tumbler and sear and drill and tap the tumbler after detailing the half and full cock areas and I use a 6x40 thread which calls for a #33 drill and after drilling the hole for the hammer screw,countersink it the depth of one thread to start the tap.Threading fluid is useful but 3 in 1 oil will work.
This procedure will work with the bridle and other screws.IF I was going to restart,I would use finer threas such as 6x48 for hammer screws and 4x48 for bridle and sear and sear spring.I always countersunk both sides of the holes in the lock pate to make the tap easy to start and all my locks used English style screws.My methods are primitive but the results are not.Take your time and don't rush this project.
Bob Roller

Offline RichG

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 469
Re: Ovens for heat treating lock springs and frizzens?
« Reply #6 on: May 20, 2025, 04:52:17 PM »
I've been thinking about an oven for heat treating and case coloring. Would an oven like 44- Henry posted be large enough to do a set of Hawken parts, or would it need to be bone in batches?

Offline Bob Roller

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10188
Re: Ovens for heat treating lock springs and frizzens?
« Reply #7 on: May 20, 2025, 06:44:00 PM »
Working with "mystery metals" can be a problem.That lock closely resembles the L&R small Manton with the exception of the slip and slide
safety.
Bob Roller

Offline 44-henry

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1151
Re: Ovens for heat treating lock springs and frizzens?
« Reply #8 on: May 20, 2025, 07:01:52 PM »
The little Neycraft would work fine for lock parts and I used it a lot for that, I do feel it would be on the small size for butt plates and triggerguards. Even if they would fit you have to consider the container they would be packed in and how they would fall into the quench. If they hit the wrong way, or are not properly blocked you will likely get some pretty bad warping.

Offline Clint

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 351
Re: Ovens for heat treating lock springs and frizzens?
« Reply #9 on: May 20, 2025, 08:41:17 PM »
Check out ceramic and glass slumping forums, you may find a used kiln for cheaper than new. I have a small electric kiln, which is not programmable but has accurate temp indicators. I generally do not use it for hardening (I harden in a coal forge) but I temper everything with it. Small steel castings often suffer from 'chills' which comes from cooling a little fast in the mold. The first thing I do with a cast lock set is to put all of the pieces in and bring the kiln up to 850 degrees, soak them for 10 minutes and turn the kiln off. don't open it and let everything cool over night. If you get a work hardened hole, while drilling, stop drilling and warm the piece back up and cool slowly. Accurate tempering opens a door to custom chisels gravers and a whole spectrum of gunsmithing tools.Clint W

Offline smart dog

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 7323
Re: Ovens for heat treating lock springs and frizzens?
« Reply #10 on: May 20, 2025, 09:16:46 PM »
Hi Clint,
Great advice and bang on!  That is how to do it.

dave
"The main accomplishment of modern economics is to make astrology look good."

Offline Scota4570

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2642
Re: Ovens for heat treating lock springs and frizzens?
« Reply #11 on: May 22, 2025, 12:28:48 AM »
For drawing springs I use lead and a thermometer.  I do the first glass hard heat treat by eye. 

Offline ColonialRifleSmith

  • Starting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 40
  • Death, is a Leopard that sees in the dark.
Re: Ovens for heat treating lock springs and frizzens?
« Reply #12 on: May 22, 2025, 01:34:54 AM »
I've bought several casting sets from Chris, as well as The Rifle Shoppe and 2 from Upper Missouri Trading Co. Production locks have gotten too expensive, so I now build my locks from these castings. All these companies sell excellent casting sets made from very good alloys. I personally use my forge. I have 2. An indoor LP forge for winter use, and a wood/coal-fired forge for outdoor summer use. I can say from experience, building gun locks from castings is not as difficult as it sounds. It takes me a day's work or less to build a lock. The "less" part is if it comes pre-drilled and tapped, as some do. If I can pass any of my experience on to anyone who wants to try to build a lock from a casting set, it is spring tempering. After a spring is tempered, it has to be annealed to remove the brittleness. The technique I use is I anneal the springs in the molten lead of my bullet casting pot for about 15 minutes, or until they turn a nice iridescent blue.
In closing, making a lock from castings is worth a shot.
Here's a trade gun I built from an 'Old English' casting set from 'The Rifle Shoppe'. $160.00 delivered and about 4 hours' work.




Offline PhDBrewer

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 113
Re: Ovens for heat treating lock springs and frizzens?
« Reply #13 on: May 22, 2025, 10:07:57 AM »
Martin,
Check out lab furnaces or aka "muffle ovens". Internal size (oven chamber) is sometimes very small and some do not heat high enough.
This new muffle oven goes to 1650F and is under $400.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/196612848675?chn=ps&_trkparms=ispr%3D1&amdata=enc%3A16gL57DcNQ9iBWhc-LA61pw3&norover=1&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-173151-913341-5&mkcid=2&mkscid=101&itemid=196612848675&targetid=2406741384189&device=m&mktype=pla&googleloc=200820&poi=&campaignid=22348504947&mkgroupid=176652595917&rlsatarget=pla-2406741384189&abcId=10239721&merchantid=5440081255&gad_source=1&gad_campaignid=22348504947&gclid=CjwKCAjw87XBBhBIEiwAxP3_A-VojIklzTvtHqgJJKb2iRoa_Vlhm9wHqaTqdhcDJ5wKqEdi6o1zKBoC560QAvD_BwE
One can also get a used small kiln and put a PID controller on it for about $40. This is a single temperature controller.
If you want a programmable thermostat, meaning go to temp x for y amount of time, then go to temp z for q amount of time etc. I have code for using a raspberry pi as a programable kiln controller. It uses an adafruit controller board to use a K or J type thermocouple.
Will I see you at the NMLRA seminar this year?
William


Offline PhDBrewer

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 113
Re: Ovens for heat treating lock springs and frizzens?
« Reply #15 on: May 22, 2025, 10:42:09 AM »
Martin,
I have castings for a similar lock w/sliding safety. Both right & left hand. More ornate.
I think they were for sxs fowler.
Make you one heck of a deal !!!
William

Offline Martin S.

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 677
Re: Ovens for heat treating lock springs and frizzens?
« Reply #16 on: May 22, 2025, 03:42:13 PM »
William, I sent a pm.

Everyone else:  I don't want to end the discussion, but I do want to tell you all how much I appreciate the information and now the comments in the newer thread as well.

Thank you, for educating me with your knowledge!

Offline ColonialRifleSmith

  • Starting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 40
  • Death, is a Leopard that sees in the dark.
Re: Ovens for heat treating lock springs and frizzens?
« Reply #17 on: May 22, 2025, 06:43:21 PM »
Here's a lock I finished this morning. It's a Barrnett Trade Gun Lock from, 'Upper Missouri Trading Company'. $110.00 delivered. I always get 'as Cast'.
 





----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
K71 Barnet Trade Gun Lock
$100 as cast, $140 drilled and tapped

The pattern for this lock came from a near mint trade gun that was probably something given to Indians by the English Government. The gun showed almost no use so was probably traded by the recipient Indian for a rifle—a fairly common occurrences. Barnet trade guns were common and were supplied by the English and also the French. The French often used Belgian made guns that were marked with the name of English makers.




« Last Edit: May 22, 2025, 06:50:14 PM by ColonialRifleSmith »

Offline wvcruffler

  • Starting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 42
Re: Ovens for heat treating lock springs and frizzens?
« Reply #18 on: May 25, 2025, 04:14:33 PM »
I found a small ceramics kiln on FB marketplace (well, also bought a full size kiln as well). Then added a PID controller and a pyrometer which are fairly cheap on amazon. I do my heating manually (ie set temp and watch time on watch). However I may change the PID over to a raspberry pi system so I can more finely program heat cycles for things like normalizing steel. Anyway, a new one that hits 2000F (you need 1500f to austenize most steel in this hobby) is $700 or so. I think I paid $150 for the little oven and less than $100 for the PID. Even if they require some repair used kilns are quite easy in terms of wiring etc.