Studying originals: Valentine Fondersmith of Lancaster, Pennsylvania

[rich pierce]

Valentine and John Fondersmith were gunsmiths in Lancaster Pennsylvania whose productive years overlapped with Jacob Dickert’s. Their rifles are far more rare suggesting much lower production and length of career.  Valentine Fondersmith’s carving was quite distinctive and the architecture of the transition from comb to wrist is different than most Dickert rifles and pleasing in its own way.

Though most Lancaster rifles of this or later vintage (estimating 1780 plus or minus 10 years for this one) sported a variation of the 4-piece “daisy” patchbox, this rifle and some by other Lancaster makers never did, as far as we know. Consequently, they expand what we think of when we think “early Lancaster” because although rifles from a specific locale and timeframe can vary quite a bit, a rifle made in Lancaster is a Lancaster rifle.

Thoughts on this one? What do you notice; what catches your eye?

[HSmithTX]

Very cool rifle.  I get the impression that it is a large and relatively heavy rifle.

The first thing that I see looking closely is that the inletting is superb. The wrist looks like it is wider than it is tall by a good bit? It's probably me but looks like the wood stands tall of the lock by some amount, I have not seen that before.  The dead straight line from the middle of the trigger guard rail to the toe is interesting.  The simple file work on the buttplate and the trigger guard really dress it up, wouldn't take but a few minutes to do and adds a lot. The carving seems like something that didn't take a ton of time but is enough to really dress it up also.  Lots of coverage without a lot of carving. Overall to me it seems like a rifle built extremely well by a guy that knows how to make it look really good without spending a ton of time on the decoration.

Any idea what the breech dimension is on the barrel?  Looks like a substantial barrel.

Are there any pictures of the rest of the rifle? Pipes and stock?

[rich pierce]

It’s rifle 74 in Shumway’s Rifles of Colonial America (RCA) volume 1.

Barrel 44”, .48 caliber, 1 and 1/8” at the breech.
Buttplate width 1 and 13/16” - not huge
Wrist width is 1 and 7/16”
Wrist height is 1 and 7/16 - so, pretty much round.

It’s stocked in walnut and has an English lock. That’s relatively uncommon in Lancaster rifles of this period. Is it a 1790s gun? Could be based on narrower buttplate. It’s not nearly as massive as Dickert rifles #48-50, Newcomer #73, or Isaac Haines (attributed) #78 in RCA (Rifles of Colonial America by Shumway) volume 1. I have a tendency to equate a wide, tall, flat-ish buttplate with guns built prior to 1780. But not all guns built prior to 1780 had 2” or wider buttplates.

Also note the grip rail of the guard curls up to the wrist. Not often seen in Lancaster rifles from this period. Similar to a JP Beck but I’m not suggesting a connection.

It looks like it has 3 thimbles in total and a short-ish nosecap.

[Jim Kibler]

Although it could be 1790’s I think it would be pretty “old fashioned” in comparison to all the other fully developed “golden age” guns being built.  I don’t think a 1 13/16” buttplate would keep it out of the 1780’s or perhaps even the later 1770’s.  The large barrel breech is significant in dating as is the style of the English lock.

[utseabee]

    I have been lucky enough to see this rifle on display a few times at local shows. It is one of my favorite rifles. I believe that this is the only known rifle from Valentine Fondersmith. I mainly collect rifles by Jacob Hoak and would like to start seeing, possibly acquiring rifles from the other Strasburg builders (if I were able to afford one). I'll probably never acquire an Issac Haines, Valentine Fondersmith, or Feree. I used to own a George Fondersmith fowler and maybe a John Fondersmith would be obtainable.
    Back to this rifle. The stock profile is not really similar to the other Strasburg rifles. The comb is different, and the wrist appears to be longer on this rifle. It seems to have more drop than the others too. Also, the patch box is not typically what you would see on a rifle of that area. I have attached a picture of the but stocks on a few Hoak rifles for comparison (these would be a little later, probably 1790 to 1810). I have only seen a similar patch box on one of the John Newcomer rifles. Every other Strasburg rifle that I have actually seen has had a four-piece patch box. The engraving is not similar to a Haines or Hoak. I would guess this rifle to be made a little earlier that 1780, maybe even pre–Rev War. I think those English round face locks would be difficult to acquire once the war started. Maybe he had the lock laying around and made built the rifle later.  Take notice how thin the lock panel is around the lock, something today's builder often get too thick. You certainly picked a good one to post on here.

[Bob Roller]

The first thing I noticed was the total absence of a crescent butt plate. The single trigger is a good idea IMHO and the shape of the stock is fine.
Bob Roller

[J.D.]

The very first thing I noticed, was how a line extending from the top of the comb, appears to point to the tang screw. The second is the flatish buttpiece.

[rich pierce]

Utseabee, great observations. I too noted the similarity of this patchbox to one on a Newcomer rifle.

[Eric Kettenburg]

(1). Rich since you mentioned Isaac Haines, and yes I realize it's a SQUIRREL comment in this particular thread, let's keep i mind that there is only one signed Haines rifle and the others were back-dated from there.  Sorry, had to interject that.

(2).  The engraving on the box is one heck of a lot better, smoother and more accomplished in appearance than that of the signature on the barrel.

[utseabee]

I went back and looked at RCA vol 1 after reading this post. The Shock rifle listed right after Valintine Fondersmith is similar. compare the stock profile and the carving on the two rifles.

[rich pierce]

(1). Rich since you mentioned Isaac Haines, and yes I realize it's a SQUIRREL comment in this particular thread, let's keep i mind that there is only one signed Haines rifle and the others were back-dated from there.  Sorry, had to interject that.

(2).  The engraving on the box is one heck of a lot better, smoother and more accomplished in appearance than that of the signature on the barrel.

Eric, Shumway stated that #79 and #80 in RCA volume 1 are signed Isaac Haines pieces. I altered my text above to acknowledge that #78 is attributed, not signed. Good catch. Quite a gun!

Any thoughts on the similarities between the V Fondersmith patchbox and the one on a Newcomer gun?  I agree the PB engraving is FAR more sophisticated than the Fondersmith’s signature.

Just noticed the cock on the lock in the pictures I showed is different than when Shumway photographed the gun. The more current one is a better pairing with the lock plate.

[blienemann]

Compare this rifle with John Newcomer's work as well. English locks, stock profile, mounts, carving. I believe there is a John Newcomer smooth rifle with this same patchbox. There was a small group of gunstockers around Lancaster City who followed an English style of their own, and this confused George Shumway, who put some of these rifles into RCA Vol II as possibly southern rifles. See if you can pick them out. Bob

[smart dog]

Hi,
My first thought is exactly like Bob L's, some connection with Newcomer.  The patch box really makes me think of Newcomer. It appears Fondersmith's carving mimics the engraving on the lock.

dave

[rich pierce]

Hi,
My first thought is exactly like Bob L's, some connection with Newcomer.  The patch box really makes me think of Newcomer. It appears Fondersmith's carving mimics the engraving on the lock.

dave

In that the patchboxes on this gun and a Newcomer are so similar, and the engraving in this one is much higher quality than the barrel signature, what might we propose? I’m seeing 2 gunsmiths in the Lancaster area, similar patchbox and engraving, and the engraving consistent with Newcomer quality of work.

[utseabee]

Hi,
My first thought is exactly like Bob L's, some connection with Newcomer.  The patch box really makes me think of Newcomer. It appears Fondersmith's carving mimics the engraving on the lock.

dave

In that the patchboxes on this gun and a Newcomer are so similar, and the engraving in this one is much higher quality than the barrel signature, what might we propose? I’m seeing 2 gunsmiths in the Lancaster area, similar patchbox and engraving, and the engraving consistent with Newcomer quality of work.

   I have been wondering if some of these makers were purchasing thier patchboxes from someone else. There are quite a few makers using similar boxes with similar engraving. To me, it would be more efficient for these builders to purchase hardware than to make everything themselves.  Then there the possibility that some of the names were added later. I'm  in no way claiming the signature on this rifle was added, but it has happened on others. Maybe they the hired a local engraver for the detailed work but signed the barrel themselves. There's plenty to think about.

[rich pierce]

We’ve all seen examples of engraved imported buttplates, side plates, and trigger guards used on colonial period long rifles. One example is the Isaac Haines-attributed rifle # 79 in Rifles of Colonial America volume 1. Impressive that they could inlet do well without needing to file on the brass at all.

[Jim Kibler]

Are there any other signed or attributed Fondersmith guns?  I don't recall any.  Maybe the signature was re-cut?  The signature certainly does raise some questions.  Not the quality I would expect and in some ways does bring doubt as to who the maker was.

I'd be looking at every detail and comparing to the Newcomer guns.

[rich pierce]

This is the only known V Fondersmith’s gun. There are John Fondersmith guns, some clearly later. Many of John Newcomer’s guns had the Schroyer-style tang carving but I don’t think it was his only style if tang carving. Need to look.

[mountainman]

Is the term Strasburg builders referring to Strasburg, Pennsylvania area?

[rich pierce]

Is the term Strasburg builders referring to Strasburg, Pennsylvania area?

Yep!

[Steeltrap]

Strasburg still has the old steam locomotive passenger car trains in service. They have many historical reenactments as well.

When my kids were young teen's we took them there and road the steam train.

Pretty cool stuff.

https://www.strasburgrailroad.com/all-events/?REFID=AdWords16&keyword_session_id=vt~adwords%7Ckt~%7Cmt~%7Cta~&_vsrefdom=wordstream&gad_source=1&gad_campaignid=21202121696&gbraid=0AAAAADnjQVtJht5NIt56Bmy9cFwgDnHQ-&gclid=CjwKCAjw6NrBBhB6EiwAvnT_ri4EEll-7I8iMpvE8j0RaPrwYDpf8sUGLltqM-p_0UnHCqtNacRzXRoC27IQAvD_BwE

[Collector]

From a Contemporary perspective, Valentine Fondersmith and John Newcomer elements of style and execution are very easy to blend, my personal favorite being a smooth-rifle by Allen Martin.

I think it's about time that attention is paid to some of the other (earlier) Lancaster builders, like V. Fondermith and J. Newcomer.  The amount of time, type,  verbiage and excessive adulation spent on Dickert, frankly is enough to bore me to near-death. (Have no fear brethren, sufficient Emergency Rooms and Doc'-In-A Box emergency care facilities are available for those presenting with ADA (a/k/a Adverse Dickert Afflictions), the psychologically ADA afflicted will, of course, already have someone on speed dial. At least I presume as much.)

Thank you Rich for presenting this rifle, for discussion!  E.K noted that the Cock had been changed, versus the former cock in RCA-1 being flat faced. For myself, I kinda enjoyed the 'not-quite-right' flat cock on the round-faced lock. It may very well have been a replacement, or not, but it's existence spoke to actual use and continuing care by its owner(s), something this longrifle obviously continues to enjoy - and, to our benefit.

Not sure, but there could be an idea for 'T' Shirt sales in there somewhere...

[smart dog]

Hi Guys,
Look closely at the engraving behind the flint cock on the lock and compare that to the carving behind the cheek piece.  I strongly suspect a connection maybe something like Fondersmith was inspired by the English-like engraving on the lock. .

dave

[Jim Kibler]

It could be, but those design elements are pretty generic and not all that complicated or sophisticated.  Hard to say where the carving came from in my view.

[rich pierce]

I just noticed that in the pictures in RCA the guard is smushed up closer to the wrist than in these pictures which are more recent.