Studying originals: Lancaster? York?

[rich pierce]

This extremely fine longrifle is unsigned and it has been suggested it was made in York County and possibly by George Schroyer.  He had some signature motifs but also a wide range of carving styles over his career. Some of the cheekpiece carving was obscured until a famous collector/writer cleaned it up some. This revealed the incised carving beneath the cheekpiece more clearly.

This gun was first published in Kindig’s Thoughts on the Kentucky Rifle in the Golden Age as #18 in that book.

The tang carving, also reflected behind the entry thimble, is of the Schroyer style; also used by John Newcomer of Lancaster and others including Peter Resor. The buttstock architecture is not out of the range of Newcomer. 25 years ago Earl Lanning shared with me that he thought there was a strong relationship between this rifle, the big John Newcomer rifle, and the fancy Peter Resor rifle.  He included Matthias and Peter Resor as potential makers of the gun.

The cheekpiece carving is the most delightful and mysterious feature of the gun in my view. It has no known (to me) predecessors or descendants or cousins. Note Jim Kibler has seen a rifle with the same carving design It is also beautifully executed and parts of it seem sophisticated for an American longrifle in my view. It equals the quality of the cheekpiece carving on the step-wristed rifle attributed to Isaac Berlin (no association implied).

I find the patchbox less extraordinary than the carving and yet it has a great feel to it, for me, and the “chicken” finial of the patchbox appeals to me. That part feels Schroyer-ish to me. I might be  the only one who sees a chicken there.

Thoughts on origin and possible makers? What appeals or stands out to you? Could it have been made in the 1770s or is this most likely post-Revolutionary War rifle? How much overlap is there between Lancaster and York long rifles in this timeframe? As a builder, what of this one appeals to you? Other questions are welcome, obviously!

[Jim Kibler]

The box lid engraving is of course very similar to the “Bowers” rifle.  Don’t recall the RCA number.  There’s also an incised carved gun with virtually the same cheek carving.  I don’t recall where it’s published at the moment.  I’ll have to look and check it out again.  It’s been a long
time and I don’t remember it well.

[rich pierce]

The box lid engraving is of course very similar to the “Bowers” rifle.  Don’t recall the RCA number.  There’s also an incised carved gun with virtually the same cheek carving.  I don’t recall where it’s published at the moment.  I’ll have to look and check it out again.  It’s been a long
time and I don’t remember it well.

Yep on the patchbox engraving. I’ll have to see if the Bowers rifle is signed George Schroyer. Would love to see the rifle with carving like this one.

[Jim Kibler]

Bower’s rifle isn’t signed.

[Eric Kettenburg]

Earl and I talked about this one quite a bit and he mentioned the Resors quite a bit to me as well.  It's certainly a very viable option but it's a fairly unique rifle and I don't think I've ever seen another piece that set off a real 'light bulb' moment, aka another that clearly was the same guy.

I've known others who strongly believe it may be an early Shroyer.  Again, though, awful lot of speculation.

Sure is one heck of a rifle without a doubt.

[Jim Kibler]

Is there just the one early signed Resor rifle?  If so, I don’t see a lot of connection.  They share similar tang carving, but this rifle has far more sophisticated butstock carving as compared to the more folky Resor work. 

Is there more that can tie this to Resor?

[Jim Kibler]

It’s the “Made by John Noll in Bart Township” rifle.

[Jim Kibler]

As I compare these rifles, the stock profile seems pretty similar.  Certainly closer than the Resor, Shroyers or Newcomers (and the Bowers rifle).

[Eric Kettenburg]

As I compare these rifles, the stock profile seems pretty similar.  Certainly closer than the Resor, Shroyers or Newcomers (and the Bowers rifle).

You are correct sir!  Very similar stock, in fact.

[rich pierce]

I’d never seen that one. Same profile, same carving design - and certainly closely related.  I’d the carving by the same hand? Is it known or speculated who John Noll trained with? Carving seems so rudimentary compared to the rifle being discussed, and I’m surprised to see simple carving on a John Noll rifle.  Perhaps very early in his career, yet signed by him. It would be like finding a JP Beck hastily incised carved with one of his more sophisticated designs. Could happen; just a bit of a jump. Very important clue. So many unknown relationships and surprises.

[Jim Kibler]

I don’t think this carving is all that much less sophisticated, but rather the big difference is that it is incised.  In fact, I see it as pretty darn good incised carving.  I think it ha a great look.

[WKevinD]

I'm a big fan of the comb to wrist transition on the original gun in this post. There is a subtle raised transition at the wrist that looks like a signature detail.
Rich I do see the "chicken" but I have about sixty live birds that look like patchboxes.

Kevin

[rich pierce]

I don’t think this carving is all that much less sophisticated, but rather the big difference is that it is incised.  In fact, I see it as pretty darn good incised carving.  I think it ha a great look.

At second look I agree. I’m sold on it most likely being a John Noll gun made in Lancaster.

Without the patchbox inscription on this gun, I’d have been off on when it was built by a bit, considering it more “Golden Age”.

[Jim Kibler]

This is the example I brought up when discussing the characteristics of early rifles and Eric mentioned wrist size not necessarily being an indicator of date (RCA 18).  I don't know if this rifle is kicking around or not.  I haven't seen anymore recent pictures, so I kind of doubt it.  I'll have to look at the KRA CD of the Wes White photos to see if there are any additional shots of this.

[rich pierce]

I’ve been influenced by the mass of the dated Oerter guns and Christians Spring rifles, as well as the biggest Dickert rifles, and started to lean toward seeing a 4 piece patchbox gun with sleek lines as a bit later, I guess. For me this is a good example of the wide range of architectural and decorative styles before the Revolutionary War. I’d like to be able to guesstimate build dates to within +\- 4 or 5 years with some success but it’s not happening.

I’m not seeing many such rifles being re-created lately but I’m not hitting many shows. I know a guy I might suggest this one to. He’d nail the carving.

[Jim Kibler]

This variability of style and date relationship is a concern.  There are only a handful of pieces that one way or another (dated etc.) allow a time to be associated with a particular characteristic.  If this date spread is wider than realized or admitted it really blows up a lot of assumptions that have been made about other pieces.

[Jim Kibler]

From the KRA Wes White photo collection

[Jim Kibler]

Anyone know when John Noll was born?

[Carl Young]

I think 1746, but there were 3 "John's" among his brothers. '41/'51/'53. Based on Ancestry tree.

Carl

[Eric Kettenburg]

I think 1746, but there were 3 "John's" among his brothers. '41/'51/'53. Based on Ancestry tree.

Carl

If John was signing his name as "John" in 1774, it's most likely he was christened "Johannes" as opposed to 'Johan ________ Noll.  I think Beck is about the only old gunsmith I've ever seen referenced in-period alternately as Phillip, JP or John, his 'vornamen.'  Ancestry is a good starting point for many things, but accurate it is absolutely not.  The best way to genuinely get an accurate origin for him would be to figure out which church he attended or his family attended; Ancestry does have some (first hand and old translations in compilations that are considered fairly accurate, or possibly the country hist soc, or at HSP in Philly.  Finding a baptismal record yields an accurate birth date, parents and sponsors.  I would bet that someone, somewhere - possibly Wes White, as he was extremely interested in such work - may already have documented first-hand information.

It's outside my area of research so I'm relatively clueless as to Noll, but I had completely forgotten about the 1774 rifle.  I've never seen it first-hand but sure would be interested to know where it's locked away now!

It's very hard to my mind to view that 1774 rifle and Kindig 18 and not see them as being either the same guy or two guys with an obvious association.  Speculative, sure, but an awful lot of speculation and attributions in our little boring field here have been based on considerably less.

BTW I very much agree with Jim - I don't see anything 'primitive' or amateurish in that incised carving on the 1774 rifle.

How about that triggerguard?  I kind of doubt it was originally in that form.

[sbowman]

Anyone know when John Noll was born?

don't know when he was born but sounds like he died in 1805
from Kindig "A will was filed March 20, 1805, in the Lancaster County Courthouse for a John Noll who resided in Bart Township, Lancaster County.  This man Had a son named John Noll.  I recently heard of a rifle and saw a "rubbing" of its patchbox which bore the inscription "Made by John Noll in Bart Township, Lancaster County August 9, 1774."
This info in my mind makes him a contempory of all the major 18th century Lancaster gunsmiths.

Steve