Trigger guard

[HighUintas]

Hmmm...

Edit: I'm trying to determine which trigger guard to use to do something similar to the ETC, Peterson, and Sublette Hawken rifles shown below. The first two have front and rear finials and the Sublette doesn't and it also has a larger bow.

As I understand it, there's no guard available that best matches a J&S, so you have to make one or modify and existing one.

I'm thinking of using Tracks English guard, their tg-hawk-L, or tg-hawk-h. I do not currently have tg-hawk-h in hand but it is a little bigger than the -L version.

I'm worried about the English guard being too big. I do not have any measurements on the original J&S guards. The Stith J&S guard looks very similar so maybe some measurements on that would help if anyone has one.



Modified English guard on top, and Tracks TG-HAWK-L on bottom.



Tracks TG-HAWK-L


Tracks English rifle guard


Tracks English guard with view of finial. The finial is not attached yet.


Peterson Hawken that has front and rear finials


Peterson Hawken


ETC Hawken with front and rear finials


ETC Hawken


Sublette Hawken. No front and rear finials but it has the large bow guard and looks like a bent up version of the English rifle guard

[HighUintas]

I'm trying to approximate something between the 3 J&S rifles shown. I think Don Stiths J&S guard was the only off the shelf option available, but is available no longer. The guard I've modified is Tracks English rifle guard . It's actually a leftover from breaking the bow on my first build.

Does anyone know If Tracks English guard is similar in size to Stiths J&S guard? It almost looks identical (except for rear finial) and the couple of rifles I've seen it on, it looks larger than the later guards, just like the English guard.

If they are the same size I won't worry much about the size of the English guard in my pictures. It seems huge compared to the late Hawken guard, but that is also Tracks smaller Hawken guard.

I want to use the front and aft finial like the ETC and Peterson rifles, but I also want the more sturdy connection of the Sublette (and later) guns attaching to the trigger plate.

Not sure which way I'll go.

Here's another very similar j&s guard. https://www.rockislandauction.com/detail/77/3054/documented-js-hawken-halfstock-percussion-rifle

[whetrock]

HighUintas,
It might help your readers if you would edit your first post so as to number the photos, and separate some photos into numbered groups, since some of them belong together. Add a couple of blank lines and a number between the sets that belong together. That would make it easier for people to comment on the photos.
Just a suggestion.

[HighUintas]

HighUintas,
It might help your readers if you would edit your first post so as to number the photos, and separate some photos into numbered groups, since some of them belong together. Add a couple of blank lines and a number between the sets that belong together. That would make it easier for people to comment on the photos.
Just a suggestion.

Edited. Thanks. Hopefully that helps

[whetrock]

You are planning on using double set triggers of some fashion, right?

I'm not a Hawken expert. My opinion here is meaningless. But just from the perspective of aesthetic balance, I think the Peterson guard and triggers look more balanced than do the ETC guard and triggers. The triggers look a little cramped in the ETC guard. I also think the way the Peterson rifle has the bow coming down forward of the hammer looks a little more balanced than does the ETC rifle with the bow coming down under the hammer.

It looks to me like your modified English guard looks quite a lot like the Peterson guard. But in the photos it looks like the extension on the Peterson rifle is a bit shorter than the one you have cut out.

[HighUintas]

You are planning on using double set triggers of some fashion, right?

I'm not a Hawken expert. My opinion here is meaningless. But just from the perspective of aesthetic balance, I think the Peterson guard and triggers look more balanced than do the ETC guard and triggers. The triggers look a little cramped in the ETC guard. I also think the way the Peterson rifle has the bow coming down forward of the hammer looks a little more balanced than does the ETC rifle with the bow coming down under the hammer.

It looks to me like your modified English guard looks quite a lot like the Peterson guard. But in the photos it looks like the extension on the Peterson rifle is a bit shorter than the one you have cut out.

I'm actually going to use a single set trigger that has a long trigger plate. I've ordered it through Hawken shop. It's supposed to be a copy (not the internals or plate length) of the Atchison trigger.

Thanks, the aesthetic is what I'm wondering about. There seems to not be a lot of hard and fast rules on J&S guns for the trigger guards, so I'm focusing on the aesthetic and what I have the ability to fabricate.

Your note on the extension being longer on mine. I did leave extra length on that piece so I have extra material for welding it to the bow. I figured I may end up cutting it shorter

[Dphariss]

The guards with the pineapple type finials are much like double shotgun guards and the English rifle hardware was much like shotgun hardware as well The Petersen has a somewhat longer tang with two screws & short trigger bar. The ETC  short tang, short trigger bar, only one tang screw going to the trigger plate. Gotta dig through some photos now. The ETC and Petersen both have a wood screw at the rear of the trigger plate. The Petersen has a 2 screw intermediate length tang that I think has a wood screw at the rear. There is something showing in photos that might be the end of a rear tang screw through the trigger bar but tis right behind the rear trigger and would require a hole or slot or dog leg in the mainspring or some other mainspring mod to clear the screw.  Other than removing the rear tang screw or getting it out of the case to look at again it would be impossible to determine with absolute certainty.
If I wanted to have a pineapple finial TG for a Hawken I would take a one of the English guard castings and a Hawken guard and do some cutting and welding.
This a photo from. J. N. George’s “English Gun and Rifles”
#1 is a 6 bore large game rifle by H W Mortimer circa 1800
#2 is a late flint 1810-1820 58 cal deer rifle by John Manton
#3 is a full stocked 45 caliber circa 1780. With a German barrel.

The scroll guard is almlost identical in the 3 though in this case for single or SS triggers. The two half stocked rifles show that the half stocked Hawken apparently was influenced by the early 1/2 stocked 2 key English rifle. The English rifle evolved into a shorter forend 1 key style. The Hawken staid with 2 keys. Though I seen to remember seeing a photo of a single key Hawken. And there is a S Hawkn with a single trigger & shorter bow guard pictured in ‘Firearms of the American West 1800-1865” pg 54 .

[HighUintas]

The guards with the pineapple type finials are much like double shotgun guards and the English rifle hardware was much like shotgun hardware as well The Petersen has a somewhat longer tang with two screws & short trigger bar. The ETC  short tang, short trigger bar, only one tang screw going to the trigger plate. Gotta dig through some photos now. The ETC and Petersen both have a wood screw at the rear of the trigger plate. The Petersen has a 2 screw intermediate length tang that I think has a wood screw at the rear. There is something showing in photos that might be the end of a rear tang screw through the trigger bar but tis right behind the rear trigger and would require a hole or slot or dog leg in the mainspring or some other mainspring mod to clear the screw.  Other than removing the rear tang screw or getting it out of the case to look at again it would be impossible to determine with absolute certainty.
If I wanted to have a pineapple finial TG for a Hawken I would take a one of the English guard castings and a Hawken guard and do some cutting and welding.
This a photo from. J. N. George’s “English Gun and Rifles”
#1 is a 6 bore large game rifle by H W Mortimer circa 1800
#2 is a late flint 1810-1820 58 cal deer rifle by John Manton
#3 is a full stocked 45 caliber circa 1780. With a German barrel.

The scroll guard is almlost identical in the 3 though in this case for single or SS triggers. The two half stocked rifles show that the half stocked Hawken apparently was influenced by the early 1/2 stocked 2 key English rifle. The English rifle evolved into a shorter forend 1 key style. The Hawken staid with 2 keys. Though I seen to remember seeing a photo of a single key Hawken. And there is a S Hawkn with a single trigger & shorter bow guard pictured in ‘Firearms of the American West 1800-1865” pg 54 .

I've got a good number of ETC pictures I've pulled from the web. It's an interesting one.

How's your copy coming along? Do you have any photos you can share? Also, if you have measurements on that one I'd love it if you wouldn't mind sharing those with me.

For trigger guards, there used to be an English Fowler guard available that had front and rear finials, but I can't find it anywhere now. I'm not able to find any that have a pineapple finial, even in the ones that are flat to the wrist aft of the bow.

If I wanted a front and rear finials guard, perhaps my best option would be to use Tracks English rifle guard (new unmodified) and thread my front finial onto the post.

But, I think heating and bending tracks tg-hawk-h and just mounting it to the trigger plate could look good too. I could shape the trigger plate extension into a pineapple

[whetrock]

Dan, you mentioned seeing a single key Hawkin.
There was discussion of one on a different page on here a week or so ago. If you haven't seen it you may want to have a look.
https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=84729.0

[HighUintas]

I think I'm starting to like the modified English guard. I bent the bow again and hammered out a little shelf on the front to add a threaded stud.

I think this one might be the winner if I cut the rear finial off, roll the scroll a touch more, refine the shape a little, and mount it into a long trigger plate.