Author Topic: Cast versus machined versus forged mainsprings: does it make any difference?  (Read 12899 times)

Offline Jakob

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Apologies. misread it.

Offline Chris Evrard

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In this comment you make the assertation that milled mainsprings have problems taking a "set" and losing strength.  I assume you don't believe cast springs have this perceived issue.  Is this correct?  Isn't it therefore reasonalble to conclude that you believe cast springs are superior?  If this is too big of a step, I retract my statement.

No it isn't a reasonable conclusion.  Yes you are reaching.  A lot. I accept your retraction. 

CE

Offline Jim Kibler

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Well good.  Want to chat about your belief that machined springs take a set?

Help me out…. So you believe machined springs take a set, but are still as good as cast?  Am I understanding this correctly?
« Last Edit: July 01, 2025, 01:32:21 AM by Jim Kibler »

Offline smart dog

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Hi,
Jim, why can't you lighten the mainsprings on your round-faced locks?  I had a gentleman in my shop a few weeks ago who had one from your fowler kit and he could not pull the cock back with the lock out of the stock.  We measured the force and it took 18lbs to pull the lock back from rest to full cock.  He could not get more than 5 or 6 shots from a flint French amber, or black English, bevel up or bevel down.  He is one of almost a dozen shooters with Woodsrunners and Colonial rifles in the past year coming to my shop with the same problem.  I've only encountered forces nearly that strong on original military muskets. None of my original English sporting guns are even close to that including the one you owned.  Anyway, I solved their issues by thinning the lower leaf of the mainsprings such that the force was reduced to 11-12lbs.  I adjusted the feather springs accordingly.  I did not touch the thickness of the bend, which is substantially thicker on your springs than any others. That solved their problems and they are all very happy with their guns. Why do they have to be so heavy? 

dave   
"The main accomplishment of modern economics is to make astrology look good."

Offline Jim Kibler

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Because I think it works best at this strength.  I don’t subscribe to your beliefs about lock springs and the desired weights.  I interact with dozens of customers a week and they generally report excellent results.  Ask the most knowledgeable student of locks today (Frank House) his opinion of our locks.  Don’t think they will match yours.  Or how about the recent endorsements from Jud Brennan recently.  He has used some locks recently and gave the compliment that he has to rebuild other lock brands but has to do nothing to ours.  I know who to respect and value their opinion.

If you’ve even spent a little time studying original work, you’ll find springs of the strength we use are not uncommon.  Dare I say that they are quite common, particularly on Continental pieces.

You like weak springs and slow locks where the flint lasts forever.  I prefer a fast performance lock even if the flint has shorter life.

So that's why I make them as I do.  The nice thing about owning a business is I get to make the decisions.  I think our success is in direct correlation to how we please our customers.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2025, 02:55:30 AM by Jim Kibler »

Offline Jim Kibler

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So I have smartdog saying our springs are too strong and I have Evrard saying they are too weak and take a set… I’m confused 🫤

Offline dadybear1

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MY WELDER BROTHER USED TO SAY"  YOU NEVER KNOW HOW GOOD THE WELD HAS TO BE, BUT WHEN IT FAILS YOU THEN KNOW WHEN ITS NOT GOOD ENOUGH!!!!  AN OLD METALETGIST ONCE TOLD ME THAT WHEN STEEL( WROUGHT IRON METAL) WAS USED FOR IMPLEMENTS( KNIVES PLOWS ETC)  THE FORGING PROCESS USED THE GRAIN STRUCTURE OF THE METAL FOR MORE STRENGTH!!!!   TODAYS MILLED STEEL HAS NO   NATURAL GRAIN STRUCTURE, SO TO HIM FORGING VS THE STOCK REMOVAL PROCESS PRODUCED THE SAME GRAIN STRUCTURE AFTER HEAT TREATING..  BASICALLY HIS ADVISED WAS TO EACH THEIR OWN...   MY MONEY IS ON "JIM".... 

Offline alacran

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Jim you are to be commended in producing 10K quality locks in a short period of time.
However I would be more impressed if one of your locks had been fired in a gun 10,000 times.
In my experience shooting muzzleloaders, the average ML shooter shoots but once a month. On average 20 to 25  shots in a shoot., Only a percentage of those shoot every month.
Even when I was shooting competitively. That is four times a month with at least two times a month in competition, I only managed about 125 shots a month. On an average year I would manage to shoot 10 to 11 months .
So it would have taken me roughly 10 years to shoot 10,000 rounds though any particular gun.
The average shooter would take take roughly 40 years to shoot that many rounds in any particular gun.
My point is that on average amuzzleloader lock isn't going to be cycled enough to make a difference.
Competitive shooters with modern firearms who shoot many thousand shots a year do experience parts failures.
It would be interesting to do thermo mechanical fatigue testing on the three types of spring manufacturing mentioned to see what the actual failure rate would be for each.
But for the most part it isn't necessary.
A man's rights rest in three boxes: the ballot box, the jury box, and the cartridge box.  Frederick Douglass

Offline Jim Kibler

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I agree that 10000 cycles of our locks would be interesting.  I have no idea how many one of our locks has seen, but I would guess around 5000 or more.  I’ve thought about fixturing one in a CNC machine and programming it to cycle the lock repeatedly, but the desire has never seemed great enough to justify the work.

Offline Bob Roller

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I am not really in the game now but I preferred forged springs but used a bunch of cast frizzen springs and so far so good.
Bob Roller

Offline Chris Evrard

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So I have smartdog saying our springs are too strong and I have Evrard saying they are too weak and take a set… I’m confused 🫤

Go back and look at my post again.  I never said your springs were too weak. I never mentioned you at all. I never said where my experience came from. This is very on purpose. 

I was taught not to disparage other people's work. Just to do the best work you can and let that speak for itself. 

CE

Offline Jim Kibler

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So who else machines lock springs.  I detect some squirming…

Offline smart dog

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Hi Jim,
I did not accuse you of malfeasance.  I simply asked why the springs are so strong. So why are they so strong.  What is the reason?  I have folks coming in to my shop who are not happy with them so help them out.

dave
"The main accomplishment of modern economics is to make astrology look good."

Offline Jim Kibler

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To even a casual observer, it would appear as this was an attempt to pile on.  I didn’t realize our spring strength was relevant to the thread title or current discussion.

Offline Long Ears

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Jim, I have a question about the manufacturing of billet steel. I'm totally ignorant to the processes. My question, Is Billet not cast to create the piece? I realize it is then rolled to shape, does the rolling press out the voids making it more uniform? Interesting stuff, I would enjoy having you in the boat all day while fishing just to learn. Thanks,
Bob

Offline Chris Evrard

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So who else machines lock springs.  I detect some squirming…

Another thing I was taught was not to make personal attacks.

CE

Offline Bill in Md

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Not a lock maker, but common sense kinda tells me that a forged spring would probably have less imperfections than a cast one. I know that cast frizzen springs break from experience.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2025, 04:18:18 AM by Bill in Md »
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Offline Jim Kibler

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Bill my buddy!!!  I’d never guessed you would come to my defense!

Offline Habu

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Or is design, steel used, and heat treat the decider?

My vote: steel, design, and heat treat.

Nobody has ever made identical mainsprings using these 3 techniques and tested them to failure, so all your responses will be educated guesses - am I wrong?
The times I've replaced a cast mainspring I forged out the replacement, but they were never identical to the cast spring.  They almost certainly used different steels, were forged to suit my ideas on how a spring should be tapered, and heat-treated the way I've learned to do them over the years.  I suspect comparing identical springs made in these three ways would be a comparison of the design as much as the method of manufacture. 

Jim you are to be commended in producing 10K quality locks in a short period of time.
However I would be more impressed if one of your locks had been fired in a gun 10,000 times.

Here's one data point: In '23 I bought a Colonial to use in the "Intro to Flintlocks" classes I do.  Since then,between shots fired by >200 students (plus at least 3 dry fires by each), use as a "loaner"/spare rifle at matches and by shooters who just wanted to try it out, and my own practice/experimentation/plinking, it has been fired or dry-fired at least 10,398 times. 

So far, no parts failures.  Subjectively, the springs seem as "snappy" as ever and the rate of flint use hasn't changed over time.  If something breaks, I'll fix it and move on.  If I ever have to replace a spring it will probably be forged: not because I think it is superior but because I'm not set up to cast or machine springs.  I've only handled 3 other similar Kibler locks.  Springs on all seemed about the same.  I did have to slightly tweak the sear spring on the rifle I fit a single-set trigger to. 

Offline Bill in Md

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Bill my buddy!!!  I’d never guessed you would come to my defense!

Jim, I think our issues are merely how we go about things. Many roads to Rome and I often just take the long way....With that said, your products are not sent out willy nilly. In fact I see you as a guy that is ever seeking to build a good product.

Are your frizzen springs forged/machined also, or are they cast?....Do you know how the old L&R springs are made?...are they casted?
« Last Edit: July 01, 2025, 04:41:03 AM by Bill in Md »
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Offline Jim Kibler

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Or is design, steel used, and heat treat the decider?

My vote: steel, design, and heat treat.

Nobody has ever made identical mainsprings using these 3 techniques and tested them to failure, so all your responses will be educated guesses - am I wrong?
The times I've replaced a cast mainspring I forged out the replacement, but they were never identical to the cast spring.  They almost certainly used different steels, were forged to suit my ideas on how a spring should be tapered, and heat-treated the way I've learned to do them over the years.  I suspect comparing identical springs made in these three ways would be a comparison of the design as much as the method of manufacture. 

Jim you are to be commended in producing 10K quality locks in a short period of time.
However I would be more impressed if one of your locks had been fired in a gun 10,000 times.

Here's one data point: In '23 I bought a Colonial to use in the "Intro to Flintlocks" classes I do.  Since then,between shots fired by >200 students (plus at least 3 dry fires by each), use as a "loaner"/spare rifle at matches and by shooters who just wanted to try it out, and my own practice/experimentation/plinking, it has been fired or dry-fired at least 10,398 times. 

So far, no parts failures.  Subjectively, the springs seem as "snappy" as ever and the rate of flint use hasn't changed over time.  If something breaks, I'll fix it and move on.  If I ever have to replace a spring it will probably be forged: not because I think it is superior but because I'm not set up to cast or machine springs.  I've only handled 3 other similar Kibler locks.  Springs on all seemed about the same.  I did have to slightly tweak the sear spring on the rifle I fit a single-set trigger to.

Wow!  Thanks so much for this post. It is reassuring in a time like this!  This really pleases me.

All the best,
Jim
« Last Edit: July 01, 2025, 04:54:41 AM by Jim Kibler »

Offline 44-henry

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As a professor in manufacturing processes, I’ve always leaned toward forged springs over cast due to their superior grain flow/structure and toughness. That said, I’d take a machined spring, like the ones Jim Kibler produces, over a cast one any day. The precision of machining, along with the ability to quickly tweak designs without revising molds or managing casting schedules with outside companies, makes it a better choice from a manufacturing perspective, at least at the scale we are talking about here.

In terms of function, there’s probably not a nickel’s worth of difference between well-made springs of any type. But Jim’s approach offers real advantages over the other processes in terms of consistency, scalability, and ease of production—qualities I would be looking at if I was doing what he is.

Jim, if you're ever in the mood for an experiment, I’d love to get a couple of our automation students involved in designing a lock testing machine. It’d be fascinating to cycle one of your locks 10,000 or even 50,000 times and see how it holds up. Could make for a great hands-on project—and some interesting data.

Offline Jakob

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Just saying, Jim, that as much as I believe in the quality of your products (and I do!), I really think the way you interact with people who have the slightest criticism of your products, isn't doing you any favours at all.

I for one, will not be buying any of your products after your recent spat here.

Offline Jim Kibler

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Like me or not that’s fine.  The general belief today is that you shouldn’t question others, the customer is always right etc.  I don’t subscribe to this.  Truth or what I believe to be the truth is what guides me in these interactions. 

One thing that we believe has helped us grow a thriving business is authenticity.  Whether you can believe it or not, we are very kind, but we won’t be walked on and if you’re full of $#*& we’ll call you on it.  These are principles we live by and won’t be changing soon even if it should mean fewer customers.  Personally, I think this honesty, though admittedly coarse at times has helped us gain trust with our customers.

Offline Jim Kibler

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As a professor in manufacturing processes, I’ve always leaned toward forged springs over cast due to their superior grain flow/structure and toughness. That said, I’d take a machined spring, like the ones Jim Kibler produces, over a cast one any day. The precision of machining, along with the ability to quickly tweak designs without revising molds or managing casting schedules with outside companies, makes it a better choice from a manufacturing perspective, at least at the scale we are talking about here.

In terms of function, there’s probably not a nickel’s worth of difference between well-made springs of any type. But Jim’s approach offers real advantages over the other processes in terms of consistency, scalability, and ease of production—qualities I would be looking at if I was doing what he is.

Jim, if you're ever in the mood for an experiment, I’d love to get a couple of our automation students involved in designing a lock testing machine. It’d be fascinating to cycle one of your locks 10,000 or even 50,000 times and see how it holds up. Could make for a great hands-on project—and some interesting data.

Wow, that is a fantastic offer and I'm sure a lot could be learned from it!  Lets talk more...