Author Topic: Cast versus machined versus forged mainsprings: does it make any difference?  (Read 12900 times)

Offline Jim Kibler

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Bill my buddy!!!  I’d never guessed you would come to my defense!

Jim, I think our issues are merely how we go about things. Many roads to Rome and I often just take the long way....With that said, your products are not sent out willy nilly. In fact I see you as a guy that is ever seeking to build a good product.

Are your frizzen springs forged/machined also, or are they cast?....Do you know how the old L&R springs are made?...are they casted?

Thank you, Bill.  I think your right.

Offline smart dog

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Hi,
So getting back to Rich's initial post about differences among cast, forged and milled springs, I can strengthen, weaken, and reshape cast and forged springs to obtain any performance I require.  Is there some reason I cannot do that with milled springs?  My assumption is that I can alter a milled spring no differently than any other when clients request that I do so.   

dave
"The main accomplishment of modern economics is to make astrology look good."

Offline Jdw276

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Like me or not that’s fine.  The general belief today is that you shouldn’t question others, the customer is always right etc.  I don’t subscribe to this.  Truth or what I believe to be the truth is what guides me in these interactions. 

One thing that we believe has helped us grow a thriving business is authenticity.  Whether you can believe it or not, we are very kind, but we won’t be walked on and if you’re full of $#*& we’ll call you on it.  These are principles we live by and won’t be changing soon even if it should mean fewer customers.  Personally, I think this honesty, though admittedly coarse at times has helped us gain trust with our customers.

So it starts with criticism of the level of engraving, builder responds with specific examples and pics and then the comments are reduced to quality of work.  That is about as unprofessional as it gets. It is like I have to win the argument so I resort to name calling.  To bad this website does not have an ignore function.  Sad that an adult sinks to that level.

Offline Jim Kibler

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I'm sort of confused here...  I don't think you understand the full story of what has gone on.  The synopsis is I've been taking shots for some time.  If you'll look at all my previous posts I never or hardly ever offer unsolicited criticism even it is screaming at me!  I really do try to be kind and nice online and in my daily life, but when someone starts firing shots my way, I'll take them for a bit, but at some point the gloves will come off.  Things can go both ways.

Offline Jim Kibler

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Hi,
So getting back to Rich's initial post about differences among cast, forged and milled springs, I can strengthen, weaken, and reshape cast and forged springs to obtain any performance I require.  Is there some reason I cannot do that with milled springs?  My assumption is that I can alter a milled spring no differently than any other when clients request that I do so.   

dave

Heck yes, a fellow can modify any spring regardless of how it's made to smaller dimensions and change it's strength.

Offline FlinterNick

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I work with cast springs often, about 90% percent of my work is done with casted springs from 6150 steel. The quality of the lost wax casting and the foundry’s pour are what make the difference in a cast springs quality. Positioning the spring is critical on locks for maximum energy, if a spring is placed too far or too low by a few MM, can be the difference between a great sparking lock and a mediocre sparking lock. When initially getting started on a lock the first i look over is the spring for kinks, cracks, voids and extra waxed over areas that indicate a correction by the caster (if the original was bent or broken).

 CNC machined springs i have found to be heavy at times (not talking about Kibler springs here) because the machining processes used for often doesn’t capture complex designs or at least the techniques used by the designer didn’t consider it, the cutting process used for springs may also be flawed. Machined springs that are sold as ‘tempered’ and ready to drop in often are too hard.  Machinist and metallurgist have suggested to me the machining processes used could be work hardening the product from overheating, poor cutters and or the burning of cutting fluid can sometimes carburize areas or of course improper  programming can lead to a poor design. Over the years I’ve seen some great ones and some really rough looking ones that were nearly impossible to lighten without removing 30% of the lower leg, these made better use as paper weights than lock springs. Can a CNC spring be superior to cast, of course, it depends on the facts and circumstances of everything else and on any given day a cast spring could be superior to a CNC spring.

The original lock makers designed their springs after long periods of tedious failures and successes in forging springs, imagine how many must have been tossed aside. With casted springs, i do feel we are copying their best designs if the caster has chosen wisely. CNC springs that utilize programming often attempt to correct perceived flaws because well, we often imagine ourselves to be smarter than our predecessors i suppose, so its done.


Forged springs if done carefully and correctly are superior to both Cast and CNC springs, I’m not a metallurgist here just stating what iv’e noticed on my bench. Forged springs crafting techniques are extremely important, getting appropriate shapes and bends are critical or the entire part can be easily ruined with a wonky bend. One of the best springs i have in my shoppe is an original long land mainspring, complete with its elbow bending mark in all, the design of it, the tapering and width of the parts produced a spring that still works from its original temper 270 - 300 years ago with lower quality spring steel. Forged springs made in a die in my opinion are of the best, a lot reasons why, i believe its because of high load compression, temperature resistance during the forging process, and precision in the shaping of the legs, with a slightly oversized die made spring, one can file it in lesser critical areas to lighten it, i was able to accomplish this with a  smith who was making rifle locks springs and musket sized springs from a die. A great example of die made springs were by Miroku, these were often very heavy left in a raw unshaped state, important to note that miroku made forged springs and casted ones too, they chose the method best suited for the project.

At the end of the day if the builder knows their craft, they’ll make a high quality product. But if i had my choice and the resources I’d have my springs forged in a die.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2025, 04:14:43 PM by FlinterNick »

Offline Jdw276

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Can you please show me where a 20ish yr old apprentice gun builder took a shot at you and deserves to be told her work is not up to your standards.  Can you show me where LR took a shot at you and you trash their quality please. 

Maybe you can clear up my confusion for I am a lefty and do not understand.

Offline Jim Kibler

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Can you please show me where a 20ish yr old apprentice gun builder took a shot at you and deserves to be told her work is not up to your standards.  Can you show me where LR took a shot at you and you trash their quality please. 

Maybe you can clear up my confusion for I am a lefty and do not understand.

This engraving wasn't done by a 20 year old apprentice.  I was taking issue how it was announce to be a certain quality.  I think this is an insult to original English engravers, their work and those who understand and appreciate their work.

As far as L&R, even the best of us criticizes their work from time to time.  From one perspective this is a public service announcement the the newcomers.

If you'd like to chat more about this, feel free to send me a PM.  I'm happy to talk.

Offline Jim Kibler

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FlinterNick,

Back to the point... 

I feel pretty strongly you could make a spring by any of the three methods discussed to the same dimensions and feel no discernable difference in the lock.

From a materials standpoint it isn't too complicated.  What we feel in a spring is the elastic nature.  Metal such as a spring can be stretched or deformed a certain amount and then return to it's original state.  The amount of force required for a given amount of deflection in a given size piece of material is the modulus of elasticity.  This is the key measure.  If I recall from a long time ago, I looked it up and found this to vary a tiny amount on castings relative to wrought material.  It was so small that it was insignificant, though.  Really, from a metallurgical or materials standpoint this is the only measure that matters with a spring in terms of how it feels in a lock.  Seriously it's that simple...

Offline bob in the woods

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After a few thousand cycles without issue, my main spring broke while bringing the lock to full cock in preparation toffee at one of the biggest bucks I've seen in my life.
The spring was cast, and although it functioned perfectly for years, the breakage revealed a tiny air bubble in the casting.  I now carry a spare spring in my bag, but that failure has stuck with me, and I will take one of Mr Kibler's machined springs or a forged spring over a cast spring any day if I have a choice . There is far less chance of a catastrophic failure IMO  [ I can still see that buck !  ]
« Last Edit: July 01, 2025, 03:22:27 PM by bob in the woods »

Offline Jdbeck

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Offline Chris Evrard

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I work with cast springs often, about 90% percent of my work is done with casted springs from 6150 steel. The quality of the lost wax casting and the foundry’s pour are what make the difference in a cast springs quality. Positioning the spring is critical on locks for maximum energy, if a spring is placed too far or too low by a few MM, can be the difference between a great sparking lock and a mediocre sparking lock. When initially getting started on a lock the first i look over is the spring for kinks, cracks, voids and extra waxed over areas that indicate a correction by the caster (if the original was bent or broken).

inferior. CNC machined springs i have found to be heavy at times (not talking about Kibler springs here) because the machining processes used for often doesn’t capture complex designs or at least the techniques used by the designer didn’t consider it, the cutting process used for springs may also be flawed. Machined springs that are sold as ‘tempered’ and ready to drop in often are too hard.  Machinist and metallurgist have suggested to me the machining processes used could be work hardening the product from overheating, poor cutters and or the burning of cutting fluid can sometimes carburize areas or of course improper  programming can lead to a poor design. Over the years I’ve seen some great ones and some really rough looking ones that were nearly impossible to lighten without removing 30% of the lower leg, these made better use as paper weights than lock springs. Can a CNC spring be superior to cast, of course, it depends on the facts and circumstances of everything else and on any given day a cast spring could be superior to a CNC spring.

The original lock makers designed their springs after long periods of tedious failures and successes in forging springs, imagine how many must have been tossed aside. With casted springs, i do feel we are copying their best designs if the caster has chosen wisely. CNC springs that utilize programming often attempt to correct perceived flaws because well, we often imagine ourselves to be smarter than our predecessors i suppose, so its done.


Forged springs if done carefully and correctly are superior to both Cast and CNC springs, I’m not a metallurgist here just stating what iv’e noticed on my bench. Forged springs crafting techniques are extremely important, getting appropriate shapes and bends are critical or the entire part can be easily ruined with a wonky bend. One of the best springs i have in my shoppe is an original long land mainspring, complete with its elbow bending mark in all, the design of it, the tapering and width of the parts produced a spring that still works from its original temper 270 - 300 years ago with lower quality spring steel. Forged springs made in a die in my opinion are of the best, a lot reasons why, i believe its because of high load compression, temperature resistance during the forging process, and precision in the shaping of the legs, with a slightly oversized die made spring, one can file it in lesser critical areas to lighten it, i was able to accomplish this with a  smith who was making rifle locks springs and musket sized springs from a die. A great example of die made springs were by Miroku, these were often very heavy left in a raw unshaped state, important to note that miroku made forged springs and casted ones too, they chose the method best suited for the project.

At the end of the day if the builder knows their craft, they’ll make a high quality product. But if i had my choice and the resources I’d have my springs forged in a die.

Flinter Nick,

I couldn't have said that any better.  Your observations have been similar to mine. And your conclusions too.

In my own shop while working to bring the Ditchburn Beck lock back to market i designed many dies and tried many  different orders of operation. Still a economicly viable forged spring has evaded me.

I do have a cnc mill and am more than capable of milling the mainspring. In fact I fully intend to mill my frizzen springs when my cast ones run out.  Anyhow,  milling the mainsprings would be a very easy fix for my predicament. Vey easy! So why aren't I doing it? So glad you asked: )

I know i wouldn't be able to improve on a well made forged spring.  And I also have seen enough issues with milled springs that I am not willing to chase that endeavor when perfectly reliable cast springs are readily available. 

Maybe someday when I have time to invest I'll revisit milled mainsprings. But my experience has shown me that I don't want or need to tackle this monkey here and now. I know of many "light spring " failures that have been fixed by gunsmith friends of mine. Smartdog has pointed out his customers wanting something lighter.

So until I have a lot of time to invest in making sure it is "right" I am going to use a spring with a 60 year track record.

That is my thought process.  I am not married to any particular process and may or may not change in the future.  I never say never because I am not the smartest guy in the room. I am always learning.  And want to continue to learn.  Technology is always evolving  and my goal is to get the best product i can at an affordable price to the people who want it!

Best
CE

Offline Jim Kibler

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Great you brought this up.  I touched on it earlier in my rants, but it could easily get lost.  As a metallurgist working in a forging plant I routinely did grain flow analysis on parts we made.  The classic example is a lifting hook.  You want the grain to flow around the shape.

With a bent spring you have grain flow following around the shape of the part.  With a cast spring you have a completely random grain pattern.  With a spring machined from a billet the grain flow is parallel and generally follows the legs of the spring but has a cross grain orientation at the bend.



This cross grain isn't ones first choice in designing a part, but you have to ask yourself if it is significant.   Mechanical properties are slightly different along the grain versus across the grain.  I could look all of them up (tensile strength, impact strength, fatigue life etc.) but I don't have the exact numbers right now.  My recollection was that all of the cross grain properties were in the range of at least 80%-90% of the properties parallel to the grain.

So, is this a concern?  Do you need to do anything?  Well it depends...  It depends on the stress level at this cross grain location.  Software allows FEA analysis to determine stress along a part like this when it's put into load.  As I recall, even with the spring cross section a normal thickness, exceeding these diminished mechanical properties wasn't much of a concern.  But, as an added safety measure, all one has to do is make the cross section at the bend a little bigger!  Bigger cross section lowers the stress and negates any concerns with grain orientation.

Simple as this!
« Last Edit: July 01, 2025, 05:08:47 PM by Jim Kibler »

Offline Jim Kibler

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A little back story on machined springs.  As far as I know I'm the only one doing this.  If anyone else is, it would be interesting to hear.  When I decided to make locks I contemplated the different methods of manufacture and machining seemed like the best choice.  I wasn't aware of this being done before.  I went to the CLA show the year I was developing my locks and was discussing them with Jud Brennan.  For those who don't know, he is at the top of the heap of longrifle builders.  Anyways...  I told him how I was making springs and he said he makes them the same way with a bandsaw, mill and files.  Jud can forge out anything he wants, but said he just finds it way easier to work from the solid removing material than forging and that they work great!  Anyone that knows Jud and all the wonderful high end locks he's built over the years will recognize this as a testament.

Offline Jim Kibler

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And another story...  When we first started making locks and springs there was a learning curve.  We failed on the first batch that went out in that the springs were tempered too soft.  To start with they were a little on the weak side and then over time the even lost more of their set.  Well, we're all a group in the muzzleloading world and although everyone generally gets along, it's always appealing to be able to criticize the new guy, especially one outspoken like myself. 

So...  a fast talking lock maker who's words are in my opinion more impressive than his work got hold of this and the word spread about how these machined springs are prone to "taking a set".  In reality it had nothing to do with the way they were made, but rather the fact that they were just too soft.  Those that didn't really care for what I was doing latched hold of this and perpetuated this rumor.  I believe this is why to this day, I sometimes still hear this.

Needless to say, we quickly corrected the soft spring issue and it's all been downhill on springs since.  It really is simple...  if you can machine it to shape, and heat treat it properly, there are no problems to solve. 

Well over 10k in the field and no breaks.  This is especially significant given the strength of our springs and how hard we push them.
A recent report of on with over 10k cycles.  Let's just say I'm not worried...

There are certainly other methods of making a spring that work fine, but so does this.

Offline FlinterNick

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Great you brought this up.  I touched on it earlier in my rants, but it could easily get lost.  As a metallurgist working in a forging plant I routinely did grain flow analysis on parts we made.  The classic example is a lifting hook.  You want the grain to flow around the shape.

With a bent spring you have grain flow following around the shape of the part.  With a cast spring you have a completely random grain pattern.  With a spring machined from a billet the grain flow is parallel and generally follows the legs of the spring but has a cross grain orientation at the bend.



This cross grain isn't ones first choice in designing a part, but you have to ask yourself if it is significant.   Mechanical properties are slightly different along the grain versus across the grain.  I could look all of them up (tensile strength, impact strength, fatigue life etc.) but I don't have the exact numbers right now.  My recollection was that all of the cross grain properties were in the range of at least 80%-90% of the properties parallel to the grain.

So, is this a concern?  Do you need to do anything?  Well it depends...  It depends on the stress level at this cross grain location.  Software allows FEA analysis to determine stress along a part like this when it's put into load.  As I recall, even with the spring cross section a normal thickness, exceeding these diminished mechanical properties wasn't much of a concern.  But, as an added safety measure, all one has to do is make the cross section at the bend a little bigger!  Bigger cross section lowers the stress and negates any concerns with grain orientation.

Simple as this!


What about the work hardening, strain, that occurs during the cutting process that can affect the quality? In my experiences this not something that can just be drawn out with tempering.  These deformations can often be permanent. The straight grain pattern now becomes skewed / strained.

Will it work .. sure, you might need to do some dumbbell curls or use two hands to cock it to make it work, and find the best flints and that may be ok for some people and it may not.



« Last Edit: July 01, 2025, 06:01:47 PM by FlinterNick »

Offline Jim Kibler

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Once you heat to above the recrystalization temperature, any stress in the material, grain deformation etc is erased and new grains are formed.  This is around 1200 F or so.

If you're interested look up "recover, recrystalization and grain growth" in steel.

Offline FlinterNick

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Once you heat to above the recrystalization temperature, any stress in the material, grain deformation etc is erased and new grains are formed.  This is around 1200 F or so.

If you're interested look up "recover, recrystalization and grain growth" in steel.

Make them harder you’re saying will correct machine work hardening grain structures? That only holds true for CNC springs? Not casted springs with random grain patterns?

I understand there’s research regarding this phenomenon and how to correct it, however it’s not considering springs … I see it for tools and non elastic parts.  Either way my opinion of machined made springs is they’re consistently overly strong and heavy.





Offline Jim Kibler

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No, all I'm saying is that any machining induced stress etc. is eliminated during the post machine heat treatment (harden and temper).

You can heat treat a machined spring to any hardness you like just the same as a cast or forged one.  They'll act the same if they have the same geometry. 

The only caveat is that the modulus of elasticity of cast steel is just slightly lower on a steel casting than wrought material.  It's so small, I don't think anyone would feel the difference.  I would wager LOTS of money that if I made three springs, one forged, one machined from billet and one cast with identical geometry a person wouldn't be able to pick out the which was which in a statistical trial.

Also, hardness in no way determines the stiffness or strength of a spring provided you don't stress it beyond the elastic limit.  Or in other words, as long as the spring doesn't take a set, you could have one at 35 HRC and the other at 50 HRC and the strength to pull the cock back would be the same.

What determines a steel springs strength is geometry and a minimum hardness such that you don't exceed the yield point (spring taking set).

Offline Jdbeck

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I'm not a metallurgist, but here's what I gather:

- Cast springs are considered “fair-good.”
- Milled springs are “better.”
- Forged springs are “best.”

However, the difference between milled and forged springs is often negligible in many cases.

These theoretical discussions are fascinating. Would it be more effective to mill a spring flat and then bend it, or to mill it into shape directly?

If I’m understanding correctly, milling it flat and then bending it might align the grain structure but could also introduce some internal tension. This tension could be alleviated through reheating or tempering, allowing for grain recrystallization.

That said, if a lock functions properly, does it even matter? This topic keeps resurfacing—beating a dead horse at this point.

I think lock function and durability as a single unit is a better use for study. A tuned lock vs untuned makes the world of difference.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2025, 07:22:30 PM by Jdbeck »

Offline HSmithTX

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When machined by a semi-competent person the depth of the work hardening due to machining in typical steels is nearly zero, this is also the depth of any grain change that might take place. I say nearly zero because you cannot see it without very specialized tools. It just isn't an issue.  If it is machined by Mongo and is burnt and blued when it comes out of the machine you may have an issue, but if we go back to the semi-competent using halfway decent tools and a bit of coolant in the cut you won't see a material change that is even a couple thousandths of an inch deep.  If machined well by competent people with good tools and cutting conditions the depth of measurable material change will be parts of 1 thousandth of an inch. And this is all assuming that we would machine from pre-hardened material and only temper.  If we machine soft,  heat treat fully with a quench and temper any changes from the machining are mitigated completely.   In very high temperature alloys (high nickel primarily) you can see the depth of change reach from machining in the .003-.005" range.  Even if we made gun parts out of inconel and could hold small parts well enough to really push cuts hard this would be a very small percentage of the overall material involved.
 

Offline Jim Kibler

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I don’t think there is any noticeable difference in the function of any of the three.

Cast springs most likely have a higher chance of breakage due to the increase chance of defects from the casting process.

A properly forged spring with grain flow wrapping around the bend would in theory be the best of the manufacturing methods, but it’s increased strength, fatigue resistance might not be significant given the spring dimensions etc.  sort of like hardened 4140 steel for a barrel is stronger than 8620, but is hardened 4140 necessary?

And there is another caveat, the bending and forming process can introduce defects unless very carefully done, this increasies the chance of failure relative to machined billet.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2025, 07:45:12 PM by Jim Kibler »

Offline FlinterNick

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I am not a metallurgist.

But from what i understand that

Cast springs are “good”

Milled Springs are “Better”

And forged Springs are “Best”

However, the difference between Milled and Forged is probably not noticeable/ negligible in most instances.

Cast springs are fine, they’re all fine but forged springs get my vote for all the reasons Jim mentioned and I trust that original gunmakers knew their craft better than we do. Ironically they began casting springs around 1850 once they started adding manganese. It’s what is demanded of your lock that’s the difference. I’ve made hundreds of locks  with cast springs generate more than acceptable ignition.

The real difference is who’s making them, designing them and of course their fee and how much someone is willing to pay. 


« Last Edit: July 01, 2025, 07:47:17 PM by FlinterNick »

Offline Bob Roller

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First of all.I DO NOT burn off oil and call it done.After washing oil OFF with alcohol or Varsol if I have any I then polish the hardened preshaped spring and use a Bernzomatitic torch to temper by watching the color change and dwell time at the bend.So far no problems.
.Very high success rate and no reason to change.
Bob Roller

Online rich pierce

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First of all.I DO NOT burn off oil and call it done.After washing oil OFF with alcohol or Varsol if I have any I then polish the hardened preshaped spring and use a Bernzomatitic torch to temper by watching the color change and dwell time at the bend.So far no problems.
.Very high success rate and no reason to change.
Bob Roller
Thanks for clarifying, Bob.
Andover, Vermont