Hawken Patented breech?

[Kurt]

Is the original Hawken patented breech ignition channel the same as the ignition channel on a TC? Thank you.

TC BREECH PLUG

[smallpatch]

Absolutely not.

[Daryl]

Don Robinson, when in PG, sectioned a TC breech just about exactly where you did, Kurt  just to see it's composition.
At the first elbow, was an air bubble,  perfectly centered in the middle of the bend. Between it and the outside  was then skin of steel. Thankfully this one was never used.

[Bob Roller]

I had  a TC breech but never thought about an autopsy on it.It was in the barrel so tight that even a very big 6'8" and close to 400 pounds
could not break it loose so my cutoff saw was used.There was some controversy years ago about over torqued cast breech plugs fracturing thru the last thread with tragic results.There IS a chance I still have it and if so,my milling machine will be used to see what it looks like.
If I do have it I will post it here after milling it.
Bob Roller

[Kurt]

I watched a YT video of a Hawken expert explain that during their time and use the barrels were "never" removed from the channel for cleaning. This got me thinking as to whether the patented breech ignition channel was anywhere as convoluted as the TC. I don't own an original Hawken or a replica, but I'm guessing the channel is a straight shot from the nipple to the main charge? My internet research did not reveal an answer.

[Leatherbark]

T.C made two different styles of Patent breech. The one in the OP's picture is the good one.  Here is a picture of the "bad" one that gives people problems.  With the "Good one" like in the above picture you can see the communication hole by looking down the bore.  In the "Bad one" I have pictured the communication hole is in the roof of the chamber which is much deeper and narrower than the "Good one" In the "Good one" when you pour powder into the bore it falls into the hole going up to the nipple.  In the "Bad one" the powder has to be shaken to get up into the hole in the roof because the chamber has to fill up past the hole up to the nipple and then we have to hope some makes it up to the nipple. This is the one that causes people problems.  Early T.C Hawkens breech plugs (the Good ones) were 5/8 x 18 thread.  I suspect the reason they went to the 11/16 x 20 later was from the over torqued earlier ones, but that is just pure speculation.

Bob

[rich pierce]

I watched a YT video of a Hawken expert explain that during their time and use the barrels were "never" removed from the channel for cleaning. This got me thinking as to whether the patented breech ignition channel was anywhere as convoluted as the TC. I don't own an original Hawken or a replica, but I'm guessing the channel is a straight shot from the nipple to the main charge? My internet research did not reveal an answer.

Name of the expert?  Not much point in having a hooked breech and barrel keys if the barrels were never to be removed. But, logic and history are not best friends.

[smylee grouch]

" Never " is a pretty strong word. I'm thinking a fella should never say never or " always ".   

[Kurt]

I went back and found the video of the very fine gentleman talking about the Hawken gun. I have to apologise for saying he said the barrel was never removed, because after listening to him again, I am unsure if he was saying the escutcheons were never removed, the keys were never removed, or both. I assumed he meant the keys, which would have meant the barrel was never removed. I don't know why he would make a point of saying the escutcheons were never removed, because why would they be? So, I may have assumed incorrectly that he meant the keys, which would have meant the barrel was never removed. He seems a very nice person, and I'm certain he's more knowledgeable than I. Here's the video and his extemporaneous talk with the comment at  9:50. I still would appreciate anyone who knows about the Jacob and Samuel Hawken ignition channel.

[bluenoser]

Have not watched the video, but if the rifle has captured keys, they could not be "removed" without first removing the capture pins.  Capture pins are often installed under the head-side escutcheon, so the escutcheon would need to be removed in order to remove the capture pin and key.  The key is not removed in order to remove the barrel.  It is withdrawn with full removal denied by the capture pin.  Capture pins are also sometimes installed through the edge of the barrel channel.  Generally speaking, a key would only need to be removed in order to effect some type of repair.

[Lampro]

The man in the video is saying that when a Hawken rifle was being built, once they fitted the escutcheons they never took them out, not even to finish them. Thus the escutcheons and the escutcheon screws were always polished white, never blued or browned, always just white.

[mountainman70]

Good evening all
The escutcheons are such boogers to get installed, and screw heads fit flush, that I never removed them for sealing/finishing
As to capture pins, Ive done them under the plate but most often thru barrel channel oblique flat, with the wire bent over to allow removal if need be.
After fumbling thru leaves, etc in woods and range, I went to captured keys.
Those I never had to look for after I found my specs! Hahah
Best regards
Dave 8)k

[mountainman70]

As to the breechplug
Some of em can be real pitas.
Ive had to remove niple andprime hole then I could get cap to fire load.
I figgered if im gonna have to prime the infernal thing, Id as soon get a rocklock!! Hahaha.
Have also reamed flash hole as mentioned
Good shootin yall
Dave

[Daryl]

My 2 hooked breech guns both have captured keys. One is an English styled flint smoothbore, the other an English styled rifle. The keys are never removed.
The other guns have pins that are "always" removed for barrel cleaning, except for when they weren't on 2 occasions with the squirrel rifle at Hefley rendezvous.

[Kurt]

Lampro, I believe your assessment may be correct. This would void my belief that the barrels weren't removed for cleaning and eliminate my concern that the ignition channel in the percussion rifles might hold residue, causing corrosion. Thank you.

Thanks to all who offered thoughts.

[Lampro]

Kurt the escutcheon is just the small oval inlay through which the wedge key goes.

Here is an example: https://www.trackofthewolf.com/parts/detail/2656/9/in-slot-1-i

[Steeltrap]

I made my T\C Hawken key a capture key. I've been in the woods when I've lost the key.....makes for a bad day as shooting just ain't the same.

However, with other flintlocks that I've added the 'ol Hawken is just a fireplace decoration now.

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

In his book, The Hawken Rifle, the Mountain Man's Choice, John Baird has drawings of what Hawken breech plugs looked like.  And they involve a hole of app-roximately 3/16" dia. drilled from the bottom of the semi-circular milled cavity in the face of the breech plug journal, on an angle through the plug to intersect with the bottom of the threaded nipple hole in the snail.  Many reproduction Hawken and English breech plugs currently on the market, are made this way.  To my knowledge, no one in modern times has sectioned an original Hawken breech for obvious reasons.  But an examination of a breech plug easily reveals it's form without cutting into it.  This construction is also documented in Wayne Robideaux's plue print drawings of an original S. Hawken rifle which resides in a museum or private collection, and which has been photographed and presented by our fellow Herb on this site.