How important is it to trim a Douglas barrel?

[whetrock]

I picked up a GR Douglas XX .45 13/16 a while back. I have read several times that Douglas recommended trimming the muzzle. Can those on here who have a lot of experience with Douglas barrels comment about how important this is? And if it is important, how much must be trimmed? It is currently 44". I would like to leave it as long as possible.

PLEASE NOTE: I am not asking how to cut it, or how to crown it or chamfer it, etc. I have experience with those tasks already.

Also please note that this thread is not about the qualities of various types of steel or their suitability for barrel making, nor is it about the history of Douglas barrels and the unfortunate mishap years ago. Please do not revisit that topic in this thread. It has been discussed on here plenty of times already.

[LynnC]

I cant remember for sure where I read it, perhaps in an old Dixie catalog, but it was suggested to cut 2” off the muzzle. Why I dont know. If it is really even needed, I dont know. I never used a Douglas barrel in any of my build so take the above with a grain of salt.

[Birddog6]

Sounds to me like you already know what to do. Trim off what you want, (sounds like barely the stamping at the end of the barrel), & crown it & go on.  If it is a tad shy of 44" don't worry about it. 

[whetrock]

Thanks, guys.
My question is about whether or not it really makes a difference to how the thing will group.

Presumably, they suggested trimming the muzzle because the rifling process wasn't controlled as well at the very end of the barrel blank. But I don't know that for sure. Just guessing and repeating what was suggested to me previously.

I'm not trying to keep it exactly 44". I'm just trying to keep it as long as I can.

Yeah, they stamped the end of the barrel with caliber and rate of twist. Inside edge (bore and rifling) is not chamfered. Yes, it would be a quick job to trim it back 1/8" or so and chamfer it. I have the tools for that, and experience in using them.

So, my question is whether 1/8" is enough? Or would I need to cut off the full 2" that was apparently the "recommended" amount? Does anyone have experience with this?
Does anyone have experience with NOT trimming a Douglas barrel the full 2"? And what sort of groups did you get?
This is a light-weight barrel for a hunting rifle. I'm only concerned with normal hunting distances.

Thanks.

   

[Daryl]

Whetrock, I would trim no more than 1/4"  then recrown.

[okieboy]

 My regular gun has a Douglas barrel, built around 1977. I did a minimum trim on it, surely no more than 1/8 inch and it shoots fine (better than I can as they say).

[Habu]

My experience has been that you probably need to trim ~1/2" minimum.  This is based on a couple dozen Douglas XX barrels a friend and I experimented with in a Wesson-type action.  Groups from some barrels did show slightly more consistency when shortened the recommended 2" than 1/2", but most showed no improvement that would matter for a hunting rifle. 

But now I'm wondering. . .  we were using a square "target" crown.  If you used the barrel full-length (just taking off enough to remove the stamping) and relieved the muzzle, I think you might eliminate whatever minor dimensional difference causing the problems that lead to the recommendation to shorten the barrel. 

[A.Merrill]

   Congratulations, you got a good barrel. I used many a Douglas barrel in the 1970' s and up until they stopped making them.
Always cut off 2 to 4 inches of the muzzle. Best I remember Douglas suggested this because they started the rifling at the muzzle end.  Good luck.   Al

[Scota4570]

It sounds like that advice is about the muzzle being flared.  I have read about the muzzle and breech ends of a hook rifle barrel being flared.  It would depend on how it was made.  I would slug the bore and feel the resistance at the muzzle vs the rest of it.  IF the muzzle were actually flared I'd trim it back until it was not flared.  Flared hurts accuracy. 

[Dave B]

I suppose that the flaring out would not be any different than coning the Muzzle end after the fact. They say having a slight flare at the muzzle end was not un common on original rilfes back in the day. If your shooting for 10X's you might want to take off more. If it were mine I would do 1/4" and call it good.

[reddogge]

I wonder if that applied to Douglas barrels supplied to Ithaca for their Hawken kits in the 70s? I have one from 1977 in .50 and it shoots great. I never cut it.

[whetrock]

I think it only applied to barrels sold "in the raw".

[bobw]

It’s from the manufacturing process of the barrel, I can’t tell you exactly what that is, but they need to be able to hold the barrel and then start the rifling through that holding force.  I expect that force changes the size of the rifling when a button is forced through the tube and this is what needs removing.

I work with barrel blanks, they are rifled but not profiled, in all my builds.  I have used several different makes of barrels, including Douglas and they all suggest removing at least 1/2 inch from the muzzle. 

I have found when you measure the land ID with gage pins (Not .001 pins but .0001, 10ths of a thousands pins) that the further in you get in, the tighter the bore get down to a point, then it’s consistent.  This is usually 1/4 to 1/2 inch deep.
Bob

[t.caster]

Inspect the rifling at the muzzle. I have seen at least 3 that rifling gouges on the lands from rifling not lining up properly from the factory. Not all of them have that problem, but on my 1st one and a couple others I had to cut 2" off the muzzle.

[Clowdis]

Douglas ml barrels were cut rifled from the breach, not the muzzle, nobody does that. The cutter reverses itself at the end of the stroke and has to re-enter the cut groove. This isn't always perfect and so they ask 'smiths to cut off the last 2 inches just to be sure you have good rifling all the way to the muzzle. If the cutter re-enters the groove without messing up any steel you're probably OK just cutting off a 1/4 inch or so. It could also have something to do with the reamer clearing the end of the barrel and cutting the bore a little larger. They also ask you to cut 2 inches off the button rifled barrels as do almost all other barrel makers.

[bob in the woods]

I had a Douglas barrel, .  13/16th  45 cal 1/66 twist  back in the 90's  It looked fine to me when I inspected the muzzle, so all I did was file off the stamping , and then crown. It shot fine, and I used it for 25 and 50 yard off hand matches until a friend talked me out of it.

[whetrock]

Thanks for all the helpful feedback. I especially appreciate the feedback from those who have owned and shot these barrels. This helps me know what to look for and how to plan.

When I bought this barrel it came with a good (although filthy) Siler lock and a pretty messed up Lehigh precarve. I think I paid less than 300 for the set. I've been trying to decide whether the precarve was even worth saving. It was a decent piece, straight grain hard maple, but was messed up by someone who didn't understand what they were doing. Looks like maybe a kid ended up with it when someone died. It even has some crayon on it. After seeing the late period Lehigh antique that Lead Snowstorm posted last week, I'm glad I saved it. I can cut away the mess and still have enough wood for the dimensions of that antique. Won't be a show piece, but I think there is still a good hunting rifle hiding in there.
Here's a link to Lead Snowstorm's post, if you missed it.
https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=85357.0

[hudson]

I started rifling a few barrels for myself a few years ago and always cut off two inches of the muzzle as I have seen in print related to barrel making. My thought as the cutter in the assembly has lass support as it starts to and leaves the muzzle rocks a bit. the tolerance between the bore and cutter assembly (box) allows this, I usual hold a .001 clearance. With product I have seen in print once up to .008.

[okawbow]

Cone the barrel and leave it full length.

[Marcruger]

One last suggestion.  I would check the runout before building. It may have no runout, but better to find out now than after the build is done.  We take for granted that modern barrels have little to no runout.  Not so with older barrels.  Not an issue to simply orient the runout up and down, but a big issue if it ends up side to side.  I once bought an amateur build, and the runout had it shooting several inches left even as close as 25 years.  Sights couldn’t adjust to compensate, and looked wonky.  Just a cautionary message. God bless, Marc

[hortonstn]

 There are many shooters in our club that shoot 42 to 44 inch Douglas barrels with 100% success without any cutting or anything you must be sure that you orientate the barrel in case it's not square  or has run out just my thoughts This is benchrest 60 yards

[whetrock]

Thanks for the warning about runout, fellows. This one is marked "XX", which was the Douglas marking indicating no significant run out, which is nice.
With this one, a previous owner had already oriented it, by installing barrel lugs, with markings on the top flat.

[moleeyes36]

I once built a rifle with a 42", .36 cal., 13/16" straight Douglas barrel.  I didn't trim anything off the muzzle, but I did cone the barrel with one of Joe Woods' coning tools.  It was a very accurate rifle that always allowed me to place well in the state shoots.  Just my one time experience with a Douglas barrel.

Don Richards

[kutter]

Here's GRDouglas's info on their bbls from some years ago.
Note the statement at the bottom regarding cutting the muzzle end off.

A brief description of our barrels.

BASIC BARREL
This is a rifled bar of steel, cylindrical in shape, with a rough lathe turned finish. These barrels will vary in diameter but will always finish at least 1.200" O.D. This barrel is available in three lengths as noted on the price list and barrel shape chart. This blank is intended for those gunsmiths who wish to turn and shape their own barrels.

THE PRETURNED BARREL
This barrel is rough turned to approx. size and shape. Usually it will be .025" to .050" larger than the finished dimensions noted on the barrel size chart. It will be finish centered and will have a rough lathe finish. It is intended to be finish centered and final shaped by you. It comes to you 1-1/2" longer than chart dimension.

THE FINISHED TURNED BARREL
The finished turned barrel is to approx. chart dimensions within a few thousandths. It will have been finish centered accurately on a lathe and turned to dimension and then belt sanded with the final grit size being 180. It also comes to you 1-1/2" over length.

THE FINISHED, THREADED AND CHAMBERED BARREL
Here we use the finish turned barrel above and then cut the proper thread for the action involved, chamber for the cartridge ordered and crown the barrel. The chamber in this barrel is finished in the sense that a finishing reamer is not required. You must however make a slight cut on the breech with a lathe and have a method of gaging headspace. DO NOT FIRE this barrel without making this adjustment. A set of instructions will be enclosed in the package. Be sure that you do not throw it away with the wrapping material.

GRADES OF BARRELS AVAILABLE
Standard grade is a barrel that meets our dimension specifications but may have a minor amount of curvature. Truly, however, I see barrels in our scrap that are straighter than most factory barrels. A PREMIUM grade barrel is one that has been judged straight in checking. It will be marked with the symbol XX to designate this.

AIR GAGED QUALITY
In the process of checking our barrels all are checked with air gaging equipment. In so doing we find some that are more uniform than others. Those that measure .0001" or less variation from one end to the other are classed as air gaged. This does not mean that should you order a barrel of a lower quality grade that you might not receive a barrel that would have graded AIR GAGE but it does mean that if you specify AIR GAGE you will get a barrel with the tolerance indicated above.
You will find that most of our basic barrels are marked for the muzzle end. In the process of air gaging we mark the tight end as being the muzzle. Some people feel that the taper should be to the muzzle, others say that it makes no difference. At any rate the barrel is marked so the choice is yours.

PISTOL BARRELS
Many handgun shooters are having great success with DOUGLAS barrels. We do NOT install these barrels. We do supply basic blanks in chrome moly only, to pistolsmiths and gunsmiths who do cut and fit these blanks to handguns. We do no pistolsmithing with the exception of some silhouette barrels (See below).

SILHOUETTE BARRELS FOR HANDGUNS
Silhouette shooting with handguns is becoming very popular. Most barrel makers are supplying a single shape for this pur pose. We have been supplying our regular sporter shapes and the customers have been cutting to 15" or whatever the customer desires. This allows a choice of weights so as to match stock, action and sights to weight limits. We will fit barrels and supply FTC barrels in suitable calibers for the Remington XP100 action only. Price is the same as for a rifle barrel.

SILHOUETTE and super magnum shape - This barrel shape was developed for silhouette shooting and high pressure 45 caliber cartridges. In the silhouette adaptation the breech diameter is always 1.200" muzzle diameter 750" and an O.A.L. of 24" to meet the weight requirements of this sport. The barrel used with the 458 cartridges will have an appropriate diameter for the action involved. This barrel is available in lengths from 22" thru 26". All these barrels have our sporter profile. Weight of the silhouette barrel is approx. 4 lbs. 7 ½ oz.

NOTE: You must cut 1 ½ “ off of the muzzle of all BASIC, PRET and FT barrels.


Why?,,I don't know.
It's just what the mfg'r of the bbl sez to do.
Plus they send(sent?) you those 3 types of bbls 1 1/2" longer than the cataloged/ordered length just so you could cut them down that amt.

Must be something to it or it would seem they wouldn't have bothered to waste the time, matr'l and writing about it.

[whetrock]

Thanks, Kutter.
That's very helpful.
The barrel I have is not one of those listed as needing 1 1/2" cut off. The one I have is marked "XX", which the info you provided states is their marking for a "premium" barrel--one that did not have any significant curvature. The barrel I have is octagon.

Thanks.