Author Topic: About ready to convert this flintlock to percussion!  (Read 1533 times)

Offline okawbow

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About ready to convert this flintlock to percussion!
« on: August 06, 2025, 04:48:31 PM »
I built a .30 cal SMR squirrel rifle 10 years ago, using an L&R Manton lock. Worked fine as a squirrel rifle for several years, as I rarely shot more than a few times during a hunt. It’s a very light rifle, with a 3/4” barrel, and I started using it in club matches because it is very accurate and I’m able to hold it up longer on the offhand matches.

The problem comes when I’m shooting 20 or more shots, I have to constantly keep knapping the flint or I get klatches. A $3 flint rarely lasts more than 10 shots. The frizzen seemed so hard the flint didn’t make a mark on it. Flints would wear down and stop sparking with English black flints after only 5 shots sometimes. I soaked the frizzen in molten lead for several minutes, but it didn’t seem to make a difference. I tried one of the ugly sawn flints and get more shots per side, but lots of slow priming ignition. The sparks seem different and seem to just sit on the priming powder for a split second before it ignites it. Seems like the steel in the frizzen is just not the best for it’s purpose.

Any ideas to make it work, or cange over to percussion?





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Offline MeliusCreekTrapper

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Re: About ready to convert this flintlock to percussion!
« Reply #1 on: August 06, 2025, 04:59:11 PM »
I've had two of those locks, with the same flint life as you are experiencing.

I sold one rifle that had that lock, and the other got converted to percussion for my wife.

I can't offer any solutions, I wasn't sure if it was just me.

Offline bigsmoke

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Re: About ready to convert this flintlock to percussion!
« Reply #2 on: August 06, 2025, 05:09:09 PM »
I had the same problem with an L & R RPL lock on a T/C PA Hunter.
After some thought on the matter I changed to an RPL percussion lock and after a bit of tweaking, it is working wonderful.
I'd say go for it, it sure makes life a lot easier and less frustrating.
Before converting the lock, I tried French amber flints and got somewhat better results with longer flint life.  But still, it was more expensive than caps.
John

Offline Hungry Horse

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Re: About ready to convert this flintlock to percussion!
« Reply #3 on: August 06, 2025, 05:13:38 PM »
 The flints in the picture look like sawed not knapped flints. That may very well be your issue. I never got good results from sawed flints, but when I switched to knapped Brandon black flints everything changed.

Hungry Horse

Offline Steeltrap

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Re: About ready to convert this flintlock to percussion!
« Reply #4 on: August 06, 2025, 05:25:16 PM »
It's your rifle and you should do whatever you think is helpful and easier on you. Before you switch, you may wish to change the angle of your hammer in relation to the frizzen. I did that and get (What I think) are a fairly decent amount of shots per flints. Now, I do knapp the flints while in the hammer at least twice during its life, and sometimes a third will get me more shots. But I will get a good 40 shots per flint. Some may think that's not good, but it is what it is.

In addition, my flints, when the lock is at half-cock, are just "rubbing" the frizzen. The frizzen isn't open...but there's not room for a gnat's eyelash.

And just to let you know I am NOT an expert at locks. (Not really at anything at this stage). This is just what I've learned by reading other lock post where I can find them.

The first pic is your hammer and I've overlaid some straight lines of the angles. The second pic is of my Manton lock with the same lines drawn for comparison. And just to let you know, I did not need to heat the hammer in order to bend it. I used a bench vice and carefully watched what I was doing.

As for flints, you really want the flint to get the initial contact at the top 1/3 of the frizzen. That will give you more surface of metal "scrape" on the downstroke. Also, make a slow, manual letdown of the hammer with the frizzen closed to insure the flint screw isn't contacting the frizzen (and pushing away the flint before it has a chance to scrape all the way down).

Now, I hate cut flints. And my flints are always mounted with the bevel down so they strike the upper 1/3 of the frizzen first.

In any event, do what makes your "shooting life" easier. Life's too short for a frustrating lock.




Online whetrock

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Re: About ready to convert this flintlock to percussion!
« Reply #5 on: August 06, 2025, 05:42:02 PM »
Helpful post by Steeltrap.

You can check the angle of contact and how the flint slides down the frizzen easily enough by slowly releasing the cock from halfcock, and letting the flint contact the frizzen and then slide down while you hold everything in your hands, controlling it to make it move slowly while you watch. Wear a pair of gloves to protect your fingers.

You might also try knapping the edge of the cut/sawed flint. Sawed flints hit the frizzen like a garden hoe, evenly across the face. This distributes the force, and minimizes any particular point of contact. That might sound like a good thing, but it's not. It's the opposite of what we want. To the extent that they dig in at all, it will just be where they first hit, and at that spot they will dig a long, horizontal divot across the frizzen, often knocking the frizzen back at that point, without slicing off much in the way of slivers that will be sparks. In contrast, a knapped flint hits the frizzen more like a garden rake, with focused points of pressure, and (in my experience) is more likely to slice off the kind of slivers we are looking for.  Knapped flits will wear and chip a little as they are used, of course, and that's like reorganizing the tines of the rake in a random manner. So you get both strong points of contact on individual strikes, and you also get a random wear pattern distributed across the face over time.
(NOTE: I'm not saying that cut flints never work, guys, so please don't flood this thread with a discussion of pros and cons of cut flints. Let it focus on the original question.)

If you want to try knapping it, I'd recommend taking it out of the lock to knap it. No need to risk breaking the lock. Take it out, clamp it (with leather) in a bench vise, and knap the edge very lightly with fine chips all the way across, just like you would any flint. Then put it back in the lock.

It may not help, but it certainly is a place to start.
« Last Edit: August 06, 2025, 05:52:45 PM by whetrock »

Offline smylee grouch

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Re: About ready to convert this flintlock to percussion!
« Reply #6 on: August 06, 2025, 05:51:57 PM »
Agree, try changing the angle. That lock has a reputation for eating flints.  and gouging frizzens. Might be a great lock for you if you can get that angle squared away.

Offline Dphariss

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Re: About ready to convert this flintlock to percussion!
« Reply #7 on: August 06, 2025, 06:20:45 PM »
I would reharden the frizzen with Kasenit or Cherry Red on the face. Quench in 100-120 degree ATF. Then heat sink the face and heat the foot and part of the foot to dark straw. Quench. Water is ok here.  Now degrease put it in an oven at 375 by an oven thermometer for an hour. Oh forgot remove the roller and pin. If you put it molten lead its surely too soft and the roller probably is marginal. If it gets a flat spot just order one. Soft frizzens tend to eat flints.
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Offline okawbow

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Re: About ready to convert this flintlock to percussion!
« Reply #8 on: August 06, 2025, 06:23:13 PM »
The frizzen shows almost zero wear. The flints seem to “skate” along the surface and doesn’t even leave a mark. Worked slightly better after I tempered the frizzen in lead, (put a heat sink on the roller and didn’t dip it in the lead),but I still only get a few good, fast shots before I get klatches and slow ignition. The flints only give 2 or 3 good fast shots after knapping some “teeth” on the edge. And won’t work at all after knapping a couple times. That was with good quality English and French flints. The saw flint shown lasted about 10 shots but it seemed most were slower ignition time than a new English flint. Tried bevel up and down and a couple different sizes.

I’ll try bending the cock, but I think I’ll order a percussion plate and hammer in case.
« Last Edit: August 06, 2025, 06:34:55 PM by okawbow »
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Offline Bob Roller

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Re: About ready to convert this flintlock to percussion!
« Reply #9 on: August 06, 2025, 07:01:01 PM »
Has anyone ever found what the old Manton frizzens were made from? I have shot a couple of those guns and the ignition is abrupt.Testing one of these produced a sizzling white hot sparking that were all IN the pan.I made a good number of these locks using the L&R externals and a precise mechanism with a heavier mainspring pre loading than the cast springs could give and then used Kasenit and water quenched the frizzen.It was drawn to a light straw color and produced good sparks but not the sizzlers of the old ones.There was a reason so many old long rifles were converted to caps with a drum and nipple and that was because they wanted a more sure fire ignition than sparks that could be feeble.Few American rifles had a high quality flint lock and some were better than others but none could match the Mantons and their competitors.The tiny fulminated caps brought the demise of the flint lock makers of England and France.
Bob Roller

Offline Scota4570

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Re: About ready to convert this flintlock to percussion!
« Reply #10 on: August 06, 2025, 08:57:59 PM »
"Any ideas to make it work, or cange over to percussion?"  I made the drum threads 5/16 x 32 TPI as to not burn bridges.




Offline okawbow

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Re: About ready to convert this flintlock to percussion!
« Reply #11 on: September 04, 2025, 09:29:49 PM »
I ended up ordering a percussion plate and hammer, and made a drum. I can easily change back to flint if I can get the lock to work. The plate from L&R seemed a little smaller and was a little loose. I also had some trouble getting the full cock to drop in dependably, but it works good now. Will brown the new parts and see how it shoots.
« Last Edit: September 04, 2025, 09:52:44 PM by okawbow »
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Offline Habu

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Re: About ready to convert this flintlock to percussion!
« Reply #12 on: September 04, 2025, 10:42:43 PM »
Has anyone ever found what the old Manton frizzens were made from?
Based on a very limited sample of 1: iron with about .78% carbon. 

Offline Roger B

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Re: About ready to convert this flintlock to percussion!
« Reply #13 on: September 05, 2025, 06:01:45 PM »
Send to Brad Emig at Cabin Creek & he will fix it. No need to go to percussion.
Never underestimate the sheer destructive power of a minimally skilled, but highly motivated man with tools.

Offline Ian Pratt

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Re: About ready to convert this flintlock to percussion!
« Reply #14 on: September 05, 2025, 09:00:17 PM »
To reinforce what Dphariss said -  Your frizzen may have initially been too hard, but if you soaked it in molten lead it is now too soft and won't perform correctly.  Lead melts at a bit over 600 degrees F.  Assuming your frizzen was original equipment or a replacement from L&R, and assuming it was in fact too hard, you'd have wanted to draw it back at around 380F for good spark. 600F is too hot and will result in a soft frizzen that will grab flints and break them.   

If the initial problem was in fact that the frizzen was too hard, drawing it back to about 380F (Dan suggested 375F) would have fixed it. Now that it is too soft, drawing it to 380F will have no effect. If you exceed the proper tempering heat to the point that the frizzen becomes too soft, you need to re-harden the frizzen before you can draw it back to the correct tempering heat.

Going back to your description of the problem - short flint life and no marking of the frizzen face - I'd say that yes it sounds like the frizzen was initially too hard. If striking angle was the only issue and your frizzen was tempered properly, yes you'd have shorter flint life but with the amount of shooting you've done you'd also get some marking of the frizzen face.

The striking angle may or may not be ideal, but before adjusting that you should fix the frizzen.

Offline okawbow

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Re: About ready to convert this flintlock to percussion!
« Reply #15 on: September 05, 2025, 11:05:29 PM »
The frizzen still seems too hard. I’ve tried several English and 1 french flint, as well as the milled agate flint. The English and french flints spark well the first few strikes and then they klatch and will not spark even though they still feel sharp. Knapping some “teeth” on the edge gets me a few more shots and then nothing. The milled agate flint lasts about 10 shots, but usually get 1 or 2 klatches. There is very little travel before the cock and flint hits the frizzen. The mainspring is no where near the strength of a Kibler lock. I believe I could replace the L&R with a Kibler with minor enlargement of the lock mortise. I may make a new tumbler for the L&R lock and maybe a stronger spring.
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Offline alacran

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Re: About ready to convert this flintlock to percussion!
« Reply #16 on: September 06, 2025, 04:52:31 PM »
I have four guns currently with L&R locks. I have a Manton like yours on one of my pistols. Two others are Durr's Eggs which are similar. I have other L& R locks but are completely different.
My point is with my experience with L & R locks I find the best course of action is to call them tell them your problem and send it back. They have always fixed the problems for me. At worse you will be without the lock for a week.
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Offline 45-110

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Re: About ready to convert this flintlock to percussion!
« Reply #17 on: September 06, 2025, 07:12:29 PM »
When one does a spark test on the bench grinder hard tool steel sparks are brilliant white, mild steel sparks are reddish. Does mainspring force come into play here and determine the spark intensity? Do the fine British locks throw white sparks? Does seem the flint, frizzen alloy/hardness, mainspring effort and overall geometry need to be harmonious, and that can be hard to achieve.  I am 45 yrs past my first $35.00 Siler and have bought many styles since, and yet really do not see any real vast improvement in speed and reliability. The Siler has always been my bench mark for comparisons.

Offline Mule Brain

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Re: About ready to convert this flintlock to percussion!
« Reply #18 on: September 10, 2025, 04:24:04 AM »
I have four guns currently with L&R locks. I have a Manton like yours on one of my pistols. Two others are Durr's Eggs which are similar. I have other L& R locks but are completely different.
My point is with my experience with L & R locks I find the best course of action is to call them tell them your problem and send it back. They have always fixed the problems for me. At worse you will be without the lock for a week.

Yup, I would call L&R they are very helpful
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Offline Tumbledown

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Re: About ready to convert this flintlock to percussion!
« Reply #19 on: September 10, 2025, 04:53:43 AM »
Perhaps the lock was dragging some? I have a lock that was dragging ever so slightly against the stock and killing any sparking after a few shots. Or maybe the frather spring is too stiff.

Offline Bob Roller

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Re: About ready to convert this flintlock to percussion!
« Reply #20 on: September 13, 2025, 02:45:51 AM »
This lock was a good one to make a custom mechanism for and I made more than a few. Most of them went to Helmut Mohr in Germany for a copy of a pistol known to have been owned by Napoleon. Someone here recently showed one of these that didn't go to Helmut and I was glad to see it.Making any more is not likely.I don't like leaving my wife alone in the house when I'm in the shop and numbing spasms in my lower back have made a full day in the shop impossible.The joy of becoming a relic has beset me;
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Online Bob Gerard

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Re: About ready to convert this flintlock to percussion!
« Reply #21 on: September 13, 2025, 03:40:10 AM »
I would absolutely get a napped flint and see what happens.
If you really want to keep the rifle as a flintlock, I would second the suggestion to send it to Brad Emig, or perhaps another lock repairman. A fellow named “Flinter Nick” in the Muzzleloading Forum is also very good.

Offline ColonialRifleSmith

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Re: About ready to convert this flintlock to percussion!
« Reply #22 on: September 13, 2025, 09:31:12 PM »
I can shoot all day without a misfire by keeping my flint sharp and using a dry rag to wipe the residue from the flint and frizzen after each shot.


Offline okawbow

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Re: About ready to convert this flintlock to percussion!
« Reply #23 on: September 13, 2025, 11:04:24 PM »
I think most Soddy daisy guns were percussion anyway. I have several good, fast flinters that give me lots of klatch- free shots with every expensive flint. I need a good percussion anyway, as everyone else in my club shoots cap guns.

« Last Edit: September 13, 2025, 11:07:53 PM by okawbow »
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Online Bob Gerard

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Re: About ready to convert this flintlock to percussion!
« Reply #24 on: September 13, 2025, 11:09:24 PM »
LOL. After all this… 😏