Author Topic: Vertical stringing? (Read 2755 times)

Kurt · « **on:** August 22, 2025, 05:52:40 AM »

I'm working with a rifle that, after a couple shots, even when wiping the bore between shots, begins to throw the patched ball up 4 inches, then up 4 inches again. Could this be related to chamber fowling, or might it be ball deformation from ramming the ball down as a result of chamber fowling? Windage is great. Thanks.

whetrock · « **Reply #1 on:** August 22, 2025, 05:56:28 AM »

What was the weather like when you were shooting?

Have you tried shooting it on an overcast day, or from under the roof of a range shelter?

smylee grouch · « **Reply #2 on:** August 22, 2025, 07:12:51 AM »

I have one rifle with a brass barlycorn front sight that will cast them high on bright sunny days.

Kurt · « **Reply #3 on:** August 22, 2025, 09:32:22 AM »

I am shooting from under a roof, and the sunlight varies from overcast to bright. My front sight is a black vertical post. Range is 50 yards. Could muzzle jump be an issue, or is the ball gone by then?

whetrock · « **Reply #4 on:** August 22, 2025, 04:07:34 PM »

I'm guessing that the problem is not mechanical, but is instead a matter of how the light is playing with your sights.

I hunt in forests and I like low, traditional, bright sights. Hunting here is usually early morning or evening, and seeing a dark sight in a shaded forest is very difficult for me. So, for me, for that purpose, the brighter the front sight, the better. But as others have mentioned in recent threads, bright sights don't work well in bright sun. You might want to try using a dry erase pen on your front sight (as has been mentioned recently in that same thread) and see if that helps. That ink will wipe off easily. You might try blacking the whole front sight and also the back and top edge and notch of the rear sight.

PS: If you need to do this in an historically correct way, for some sort of event, you can do it with a candle. Just trim the wax back a little with a knife, so as to make the wick longer than it needs to be, and then the candle will produce a lot of soot. You can hold your rifle sights over the candle to black the sights. Just be careful, lest you scorch the wood!

ClaMar · « **Reply #5 on:** August 22, 2025, 05:00:30 PM »

In addition to differing light on the front sight, how are you resting the barrel? Make sure it's the same every time, experiment with holding it in your hand resting on the rest, and experiment with different rest points if you can't find another solution to your problem.

I haven't seen it with my muzzleloaders, but I shoot BPCR rifles, with the front rest on the bare barrel (these are typically ~1" across the octagon flats). The position of the rest makes a difference, both in point of impact and accuracy. Even in those barrels, barrel harmonics make a big difference. If I watch the recoil of the rifle, it's easy to see if the rest is on a null point; the barrel doesn't jump off the rest. If not on a null point, vertical jump is apparent. Most shooters find a null point ~6" behind the muzzle, or immediately in front of the forearm. I'm not sure whether this would be significant for round ball rifles, or even where to start with rest position.

Clarence

Hungry Horse · « **Reply #6 on:** August 22, 2025, 05:14:15 PM »

Kurt, how heavy, or light is your barrel, and is it straight or swamped? A light barrel, or a heavily swamped barrel, can react to barrel heat and move enough to affect your point of aim. I had a swamped barrel that after just three shots in a relatively short time, would start throwing shots high and to the right. I cured it by opening up the stock at the swamped area and glass bedding it.

Hungry Horse

Daryl · « **Reply #7 on:** August 22, 2025, 07:30:08 PM »

Quote from: Kurt on August 22, 2025, 05:52:40 AM

I'm working with a rifle that, after a couple shots, even when wiping the bore between shots, begins to throw the patched ball up 4 inches, then up 4 inches again. Could this be related to chamber fowling, or might it be ball deformation from ramming the ball down as a result of chamber fowling? Windage is great. Thanks.

So, 50 yards and shooting from a rest.
Does this mean a total of 8" high then for the second rise?
I've not witnessed the 4" poi, let alone 8" from my guns.
Are you using the rifle's rod, or a separate rod for loading?
If rifle's rod, are you replacing it before every shot?
Is the barrel tight in the forend and tight to the breech, ie: no movement?
Consistency as in everything identical shot to shot is necessary for shooting good groups, from the loading to the seating position, everything must be identical or as close as is possible.
Good bench technique is as important as good positioning and holding in standing shooting.

recurve · « **Reply #8 on:** August 22, 2025, 08:49:01 PM »

same rifle and load 50 (sunny)and 100yrds more shaded near sunset

my clean barrel shot is always higher

Kurt · « **Reply #9 on:** August 22, 2025, 09:16:40 PM »

The rifle is a percussion 50 caliber, with a 28-inch 15/16 barrel. I did tighten the barrel into the half stock. I am resting the rifle on the forearm, probably midway on the barrel, on sandbags, and using a range rod while keeping the wood rod in the gun. I'm trying to shoot a 5-shot tight group, but after two shots, it goes wild on me, even swabbing between shots.

ClaMar · « **Reply #10 on:** August 22, 2025, 09:29:04 PM »

In addition to differing light on the front sight, how are you resting the barrel? Make sure it's the same every time, experiment with holding it in your hand resting on the rest, and experiment with different rest points if you can't find another solution to your problem.

I haven't seen it with my muzzleloaders, but I shoot BPCR rifles, with the front rest on the bare barrel (these are typically ~1" across the octagon flats). The position of the rest makes a difference, both in point of impact and accuracy. Even in those barrels, barrel harmonics make a big difference. If I watch the recoil of the rifle, it's easy to see if the rest is on a null point; the barrel doesn't jump off the rest. If not on a null point, vertical jump is apparent. Most shooters find a null point ~6" behind the muzzle, or immediately in front of the forearm. I'm not sure whether this would be significant for round ball rifles, or even where to start with rest position.

Clarence

snapper · « **Reply #11 on:** August 22, 2025, 11:48:00 PM »

Kurt

Is the rifle new to you?

Or a rifle you had a while and just started to do this?

Any nicks or dings in the crown?

Have someone else shoot the rifle and see what happens.

I know it can be frustrating.

Fleener

Kurt · « **Reply #12 on:** August 23, 2025, 02:49:12 AM »

Yes, the rifle is new to me. The crown looks fine, and it will put the first couple of shots touching, but subsequent shots, even swabbing the bore, go high. I have become frustrated with it because I want to shoot a 5-shot cluster and can't get near it. I have tried increasing patch thickness, but it's too hard to load. I even tried ruffing the balls, thinking they may not be rotating with the patch. I am stumped by the fact that it puts the first balls where I want them, but not the following ones. I end up leaving the range very frustrated. I think I'm going to give up on it till next year, as I have many other rifles to get shot and many other things I need to do. You know how that is.

snapper · « **Reply #13 on:** August 23, 2025, 04:36:09 AM »

Heat? Barrel is warming up? Perhaps try a full-length bedding.

My double rifle sighting in has been giving me fits as well.

Good luck.

Fleener

Kurt · « **Reply #14 on:** August 23, 2025, 05:56:54 AM »

I really appreciate all of the advice offered. Thanks greatly!

Steeltrap · « **Reply #15 on:** August 23, 2025, 03:07:54 PM »

Quote from: snapper on August 23, 2025, 04:36:09 AM

Heat? Barrel is warming up? Perhaps try a full-length bedding.

My double rifle sighting in has been giving me fits as well.

Good luck.

Fleener

Excellent point! I had just this occur on a recent build. The stock\barrel fit at the wedge key was just a tad loose as I could squeeze it and determine a tiny bit of movement. A wedge key bend solved the issue.

smylee grouch · « **Reply #16 on:** August 23, 2025, 03:31:34 PM »

So if your gun shoot two shots close to each other then t rest are off, maybe its just not grouping well with that load?

If you think your barrel wedge is suspect it would be so for the first two shots as well.

Steeltrap · « **Reply #17 on:** August 23, 2025, 08:46:53 PM »

I don't think a loose wedge key would allow for any kind of consistent shot to shot group. So, maybe 3 shots would all tough and the next two would be high and left and the sixth shot would be low and right.

If your wedge key is loose.....tighten it up and remove that from the equation.

taterbug · « **Reply #18 on:** August 23, 2025, 11:42:31 PM »

A few more questions.

Why do you feel the need to swab the barrel?

Does it start to load tight after the first couple shots, or stay relatively loose and easy without swabbing? Does the patched ball start easy at the muzzle? how do the patches look after firing? Are they burning through, or have tears in them? I know on some ranges it can be difficult to get or find the patches.

A few different possible reasons for the patches not being intact after firing, and the condition of the patches can help find the cause.

last, is this a TC New Englander with the .50 round barrel?

Kurt · « **Reply #19 on:** August 24, 2025, 01:57:50 AM »

I have been shooting this rifle almost exclusively most of the summer. From the start, it would put the first ball in the bull, which is about 1.5 inches square (blue masking tape). Clean bore. Accuracy degrades as the bore fouls, and I have experienced difficulty seating the load at about the third loading. I think I'll try letting the barrel cool. I have tightened the wedge pin previously. As noted, it is difficult to find the patches as I have been shooting from the same bench and there are alot of them lying around. I know at some point the patches looked really good, but on another occasion, some looked burned through. I had been using dish soap and water, then tried bore butter, then went back to the dish soap as the bore butter seemed not to take the heat. I remember thinking, "Is this why some on the forum don't like bore butter?" Heat is the only thing, at this point that I can think might be the cause. I'll have to be more payient and give it time to cool. I do the swabbing with windshield washer fluid and dry it before loading again. This was my dad's TC Hawken. A very lightly used gun.

Scota4570 · « **Reply #20 on:** August 24, 2025, 02:38:05 AM »

When workign with a new rifle I start with a low charge. The group normally strings vertical. I attribute that to low pressure not encouraging a consistent burn and consistent pressure. As I increase the charge the group gets tighter, until it doesn't. At some point the group opens up, but in rounder pattern. ...........most of the time. : )

5 grain incriminates are enough to observe trends. When it is as small as it gets I pay with patch thickness and micromanaging the optimum charge . I do not use combinations that require pounding the ball down with a steel rod. I use moose milk a the range. I do swab between shots with damp patch for load testing .

The charge could be a bit low?

Kurt · « **Reply #21 on:** August 24, 2025, 05:31:34 AM »

I will increase the charge and see what happens. Thanks.

snapper · « **Reply #22 on:** August 24, 2025, 04:13:59 PM »

Kurt

I use a fairly damp patch for the RB. It cleans the bore as it loads. I never have to clean the bore to shoot or have loading issues. Perhaps you give this a try. You stated that at the 3rd round loading gets harder. I think the dirty bore is your issue now.

Or try cleaning between shots. I would not try to work up a load without having a consistent bore condition between shots.

Fleener

Daryl · « **Reply #23 on:** August 24, 2025, 07:37:26 PM »

If your combination is not cleaning the bore as you load, the fouling will build shot after shot.
This shows your combination is weak and not sealing.
With this scenario, you'd get better accuracy with cleaning/swabbing/wiping(whatever you want to call it) between shots.
Expecting to shoot a good group with some rounds shot dirty, then some after a fresh lean, likely won't work.
The bore needs to be in the same condition every shot.
For such a " weak" combination, wiping every shot is your only way of achieving this consistency.IMHO

hudson · « **Reply #24 on:** August 25, 2025, 05:08:00 PM »

I built a rifle some time back with that problem. The barrel was 15/16 42 in. 40 caliber it had a bad bend which I straitened. Slow fire OK faster shooting heating up it would walk.

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Author Topic: Vertical stringing? (Read 2755 times)