ramrods with metal tips on both ends-hurt accuracy???

[sonny]

I always wanted a cleaning jag on the barrel end of the ramrod,with a brass bullet seater on the breach end of the rod.I am thinking that the metal end will murder the ball when seating it an lose all kinds of accuracy doing so.I also worry that trying to start a ball down the bore after short starters are used, might bugger up the crown, or wear the heck out of rifling at muzzle end,getting things started down the bore!!!.....anybody have a business end on both ends of hunting rod???.......sonny

[Roger Fisher]

WEll now Sonny I assume you mean the rod carried in the rifle stock.  No I do not since the breech end of mine are generally tapered kinda skinny to pass that front lock bolt.      Hurt  accuracy?  Nah

BTW We were chased by fairly heavy rain at Topton at the 3/4 mark of the w walk.

[RonT]

If I'm reading correctly your ends are flat.   I cup the ends of my rods and short starters to conform to the natural curvature of the ball.  In one case I cut a ~3/8" collar out of a Brass shell casing and glued and pined it to the end as a preventitive measure (real or imagined) to prevent splitout.
R

[George Sutton]

I've used brass jags for years on my rifle's ramrods with no ill effects. The brass is softer than steel and will do no harm.

Centershot

[Daryl]

I like to have one end threaded 8x32 and the other 10x32. Both are cupped, as are the plungers on the short starter, thelittle nub for putting the patched ball down about 1/4" and the end of the long shaft for putting the ball down 4 to 6".  If you look at a store bought rod tip, you can see the 'cup' needed to prevent damage to the ball.

[SCLoyalist]

With respect to ruining accuracy, take a look at the scores shot at Friendship, the Territorials, or similar match events.   Accuracy is the primary concern there, and I'm pretty sure most balls are pushed down the bore with range rods with brass jags with cupped or contoured ends.  A similar jag on the end of a wooden ramrod carried in the thimbles shouldn't cause any more deformation or loss of accuracy.  If loading deforms the ball and accuracy does suffer, maybe a different ball/patch/lube combination or  coning the muzzle to get the ball started easier is called for.

Most of my 'carry' rods have a threaded brass tip at the visible barrel end, with a plain wood end inserted into the thimbles. 

SCL

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

 I taper all my ramrods.  The small end has the brass tip, cupped for the ball, and threaded 8 x 32 for attachments.  It goes into the stock, the plain un-tipped end at the muzzle.  The tipped end pushes the ball down the barrel so that the rod does not need the 180 degree rotation once out, and before it goes back into the rifle.

[roundball]

Both ends of my under barrel rods have threaded ends...and I've even used a flat faced shotgun jag when shooting Hornady / Speer PRBs out of a smoothbore and never saw anything that suggested a change in accuracy as a result.

And remember cast balls are usually put in with the spru up and I've shot some pretty ugly looking sprued balls with no obvious change in accuracy that I could tell.

[doug]

     I am guessing your principle concern is damage to the top of the ball during ramming.  I make a brass tip with a cup shaped face for one end of the rod and have a brass tip threaded 8x32 on the other end for an eye to hold a wiping patch.  The large tip is about .01 or .02 under bore diamter so it does not get caught in the patch but is centered and with the cupped face does not damage the ball.  I have picked up balls on the range where the upper face of the ball was conspicuously damaged by being pounded with a small diameter rod tip. 

cheers Doug

[hanshi]

Damage to the face of the ball is really a non issue and is minimal anyway.  All of my longrifles have tapered hickory rods but not all have a brass tip, some are plain.  Certainly for field work a cupped jag isn't needed.  If you use a range rod at the range, shoots, etc. a jag is useful; a muzzle guard is mandatory to prevent crown damage.

[axelp]

WOW... what an ignoramous I am... my rifles ramrod was made tapered, and the small end has a tip with a threaded hole... I sadly admit that I never thought about not twirling the rod and using that end to push the ball down the bore... sheesh. I gotta try that. save a lot of useless choreography...
 

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

It'll save your rod too.  The small end is fragile to be used to seat the ball with that little end sticking out of the muzzle, when used as I do, it is in the bore and pushing the ball so can't be broken off.  The big end of the rod is easier on the hand for pushing too.

[omark]

im like daryl, brass on each end with different threads. dont think it will ever hurt accuracy.    mark

[Daryl]

The front-end shape of the projectile has very little if any effect on accuracy - IF - the projectile is stable in flight.  The eception to this is an unstable projectile and RB's from smoothbores should be perfect in shape. The more perfect they are, the more slowly they will take on a spin which causes them to diverge from the intended target.

The base of the projectile must be as perfect as possible, so the powder gases last pushing it, do so as regularly as possible.  For this reason, we place the sprue pointing up. If it isn't perfectly in line with the axis of the bore, it will have little effect on flight.  If it is pushed totally, smashed flat or not touched at all by a cupped or flat starter end it will have little or no effect on accurate flight.

You can prove this to yourself by shooting groups. 25 yards will tell you nothing - never has amounted much for testing.  Even a smoothbore will shoot into an inch at 25 yards.  You must shoot at least 50 yards & 75 yards would be better,  to give an opportunity for the atmosphere to 'work' on the ball.  Shoot 2 or beter yet, 3 or 4 groups, being very careful with ball orientation and not deforming it at all, the shoot the same number of groups with the tops smashed flat, or spures off centre.  The results will be interesting.

 BR shooters will already know that orientation of the sprue, as well as cloth weave direction makes a difference, but it is slight. BR contests are won and lost by 'slight' differences in groups, but for a hunting rifle, the average groups sizes will be within an inch, say 1" for perfect balls, and 2" for those not aligned perfectly.  The difference is small.  Now, shoot a couple groups with the sprue pointing down. It is vertually impossibe to get is straight down.   Accuracy isn't so hot, is it.

Lately, I tested shooting groups with giving the top of the ball a smack with the top surface of the starter as shown in those two videos I posted, against using the little brass 'nub' for initial seating of the ball. use of the nub gave better accuracy.  This is due to the straight line seating into the muzzle that happens with the nub, vs when smacking the ball down, the blow is hardly ever square and the ball will be started heavier towards one side of the muzzle than the other.  You can see the difference this causes by seating the ball in the middle of a strip of cloth, then pulling the ball out and looking at the surface contacting the rifling.  It will be heavier on one side than the other with a 'smack', whereas it will be even if the nub is used.  The difference in groups sizes was double size.

Add a few more accuracy destroyers, like sprue down, or cocked, or too thin a patch and the 'error' in points of impact multiplies and the groups 'grow' quickly to that of an imperfect smoothbore.  There have been times I've gotten groups at 50 yards with a rifle that were larger than what I get with my smoothbore.  There is always a cause.

[Roger Fisher]

Jeez Daryl very interesting and good to remember!

So I understand now that she likes a little nub rather than a good 'smack'

I better go cut wood or better yet get to the rifle in 'process'!

[roundball]

I haven't had smoothbore over rifle type accuracy out of a smoothbore yet...but can't say as I've done much load development with smoothbores either.

But I can say I am always shocked at how accurate my .54cal Flint GM smooth rifle barrels are with their rear sights...easily puts Hornady balls in a 3" aim point sticker at 50yds, shooting from a hunting / sitting position with my left elbow braced down against my chest...filled all my deer tags with one the first year I got one.

In fact, if asked the question "if you could only have one muzzleloader", the .54cal would be right up there competing pros & cons against a .62cal for the kind of hunting / shooting that I normally do...

[sonny]

thanks.........i appreciate the replys.........just i have this idea in my head that the brass cup shaped small end fitted thru ramrod thimbles,when tap tap tapping the started ball down the bore would make several saucer shaped disc's on ball's top. I for the love of god cannot see how that won't mess up a nice group on paper or a tough small hunting shot in woods.I have a cleaning jag that extends just slightly past the muzzle,an always wanted to have brass cup shaped bullet jag on other.I thought i remember gunsmiths talking about brass will work harden an mess up the borw/crown throat of barrel.......I always used wood on bullet start end after hearing that.But,when i had to pull a ball an only had a nub of rod end to do it wih i though about brass ends on both sides of rod...Is there any documention for a rod like this?......thanks....sonny

[roundball]

I always carry a solid brass T-handle (with steel threaded insert) or a 2" wooden ball with a bolt through it to serve as a torque amplifier on the other end of the ramrod...and IMO, the 10/32" size adapters are stronger

[Daryl]

Sony, instead of tap, tap, tap, tapping, try hitting it only once to get it down the bore after seating it flush with one whack.  seating it flush with a short, cupped tit on the rod doens't damage the ball in the slightest.  You can see the ball's upper surface and there is no damage.  The more times you hit it, though, accumulating damage can occur.

Brass cupped ends will not hurt your bore, nor the muzzle, any more than a wooden tip, but they will leave the ball with less damage than a wooden rod tip that is smaller than the bore is wide.  As the rod slides off the centre of the sprue when shoving a ball down the tube, it can damage the ball's side.  Th is will cause more flight problems than a slightly flattened nose.

When a rifle gives you 1" to 1 1/2" 5 shot groups at 100yards, you tend to dismiss a lot of old wives tales - tales like a brass rod tip work-hardening and damaging the muzzle or bore.  Metal has to move in order to harden.  The rod tips are mostly bronze and are already quite hard.  I doubt they get much harder- but possibly that might be measurable with sensitive enough equipment.  

I load my .69 just about exactly as I'm loading this double rifle.  If there is any damage to the ball, it sure doesn't show up on a target.  Last 6 shot group at 200 yards off the bench with the .69 was 1 1/4" wide by 3 1/2" high. Bit of elevation trouble? Not a whole lot. I can handle .42 X 1 3/4MOA with iron sights at 200 yards, or 1 to 1 1/2 MOA at 100.

[sonny]

daryl...........wow........thats shooting!.........with a ramrod that has a jag to just fit the ramrod channel won't it get stuck in damp weather?......what about the threaded hole for a cleaning jag attachment? won't that dimple the ball?.....sonny

[Daryl]

Minor imperfections on the top surface of the ball have NO effect on it's flight - if - the ball is started straight into the bore.
I don't have jags on my rod tips unless I'm cleaning.

[sonny]

daryl..........you don't clean after every shot?.........you don't have the threaded hole in bullet seater metal end inside rod?.........then you must  have a cleaning jag exposed on muzzle end.............or you only do the hunting thing an have a rod with no cleaning end as such few shots are taken you clean at home an not to be used for competition on the line........sonny

[Daryl]

Sonny, some of my rods have a threaded, cupped tip on one end only, some have threaded, cupped tips on both ends.  Here's an example.  The reason they have cupped tips, is not to use a jag for wiping while shooting, but for pulling dry-balls (never happened to me - much ) and for cleaning the rifle at home after the day's shooting is done for the day. Some of us have a 'cleaning' rod for cleaning at home, some don't. I do, but still use the rifle's rod most as I don't like steel rods running up and down the bore often.  We use the same guns for hunting as trail walks, and when hunting, one needs to have a threaded tip on one end of the rod for cleaning at the end of the day.

None of us can understand why anyone needs to wipe the bore while shooting - it is a matter of discussion on our trail often, as we try to figure out why someone would have to, or would want to. We'd rather be shooting and visiting with each other, than wiping.  I can't imagine the amount of cloth cleaning patches that would be all over the bush if we had to wipe every shot - WOW!. We certainly wouldn't get off 70 to 85 shots in 4 or 5 hours, that's for sure.  

Go back and look at the pictures of all of our Sunday shoots, not one of the people pictured has to wipe the bore at any time during the shooting of the trail - be it, 45 shots or 85 - not even the beginers.  We're there to help and teach them.  They don't arrive at the range without a well crowned gun and the proper balls and patches - we see to that.  We all use combinations that wipe the fouling from the last shot as we load the next so that the bore itself never builds fouling, be it square or rounded rifling.
 
Our most difficult targets are the last ones we shoot - the longest ranges and/or the smallest targets.   The rifles are as accurate for the last shot as they are for the first or second, this is evident by the shooting.

My rifles that have rods that have one end wooden, have the end in the stock with a threaded tip. The rod gets pulled out then that cupped, threaded tip goes against the ball. I don't have to reverse the rod. Same goes for the tapered rods, the wooden end is at the muzzle - rod comes straight out, then over and  onto the ball with the cupped, threaded end.

In the video, I reversed the double's rod as the inner end doesn't have a threaded tip, yet and being rounded, it slides on the ball's surface, over against the bore.
  


the other end

[Roger Fisher]

Hey Sonny:  Keep your secretary on the ball watching for the March 2010 issue of M Blasts.  There is an interesting article due in that one that should ans parts of your question....

[roundball]

Amen on not wiping between shots...get the right lube and shoot all day without wiping...