Author Topic: Jim Kibler's Bess kit  (Read 3706 times)

Online rfd

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Jim Kibler's Bess kit
« on: September 24, 2025, 11:54:30 PM »
Eagerly awaiting it's arrival, hopefully by very early next year as I could sure use it to replace my Pedersoli Bess kit for 250th reenacting events.

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Offline mountainman

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Re: Jim Kibler's Bess kit
« Reply #1 on: September 25, 2025, 12:06:51 AM »
Is Kibler planning on making a new style lock for it? Or was he going to use the same as the fowler?

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Re: Jim Kibler's Bess kit
« Reply #2 on: September 25, 2025, 02:04:27 AM »
Is Kibler planning on making a new style lock for it? Or was he going to use the same as the fowler?

No details yet on anything about the Kibler Bess, other than it's gonna be offered.
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Re: Jim Kibler's Bess kit
« Reply #3 on: September 25, 2025, 02:30:30 AM »
The Pedersoli Bess kit I bought off DGW was a bit of a disappointment and not the typical offshore "screwdriver kit".  More than a few details were out of spec and required a fair amount of fixing (way off center pipe stock mortises, and other inlet/mortise components that were just a bit "off").  But the lock itself is at least decent, with a hard hammer steel that sparks well.  It'll be a relief to get a Kibler Bess kit.





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Offline Daryl

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Re: Jim Kibler's Bess kit
« Reply #4 on: September 25, 2025, 03:08:58 AM »
I think the Bess will be my first Kibler kit. I know it will be. I well remember shooting a 2 1/2" 5-shot group at 50 yds with the 1748(I think) model Bess Taylor built. That one was 10 bore, .774". What a gem it was. AND I have help iff I get into trouble. I'm not well known for having much in the way of patience.
Daryl

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Offline Tumbledown

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Re: Jim Kibler's Bess kit
« Reply #5 on: September 25, 2025, 04:03:13 AM »
Is Kibler planning on making a new style lock for it? Or was he going to use the same as the fowler?
Is the fowler lock the same as that found on a Bess?

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Re: Jim Kibler's Bess kit
« Reply #6 on: September 25, 2025, 04:08:01 AM »
Hi Guys,
As I understand it, Jim's Bess kit will be a long land musket meaning it has a 46" barrel and should weight 10-11 lbs. It will be be nothing like your Pedersolis or Mirokus.  It will be much bigger and heavier.  Hopefully he won't use his fowler lock which is totally too small and the wrong design.  For those of you who have only handled  Pedersolis or Mirokus, you have never experienced a real Brown Bess, short land or long land.  If Jim accurately reproduces a long land Brown Bess, you will be in for a shock.

dave   
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Re: Jim Kibler's Bess kit
« Reply #7 on: September 25, 2025, 01:27:19 PM »
Hi Guys,
As I understand it, Jim's Bess kit will be a long land musket meaning it has a 46" barrel and should weight 10-11 lbs. It will be be nothing like your Pedersolis or Mirokus.  It will be much bigger and heavier.  Hopefully he won't use his fowler lock which is totally too small and the wrong design.  For those of you who have only handled  Pedersolis or Mirokus, you have never experienced a real Brown Bess, short land or long land.  If Jim accurately reproduces a long land Brown Bess, you will be in for a shock.

dave

Interesting.  I heard it'd be a 2nd Land Pattern 42" bbl - which would be the smartest choice possible over the 1st Land Pattern.
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Offline Tumbledown

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Re: Jim Kibler's Bess kit
« Reply #8 on: September 25, 2025, 02:06:39 PM »
Hi Guys,
As I understand it, Jim's Bess kit will be a long land musket meaning it has a 46" barrel and should weight 10-11 lbs. It will be be nothing like your Pedersolis or Mirokus.  It will be much bigger and heavier.  Hopefully he won't use his fowler lock which is totally too small and the wrong design.  For those of you who have only handled  Pedersolis or Mirokus, you have never experienced a real Brown Bess, short land or long land.  If Jim accurately reproduces a long land Brown Bess, you will be in for a shock.

dave

Interesting.  I heard it'd be a 2nd Land Pattern 42" bbl - which would be the smartest choice possible over the 1st Land Pattern.
Smartest choice by what criteria? Many disagree.

Online rfd

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Re: Jim Kibler's Bess kit
« Reply #9 on: September 25, 2025, 02:38:12 PM »
Hi Guys,
As I understand it, Jim's Bess kit will be a long land musket meaning it has a 46" barrel and should weight 10-11 lbs. It will be be nothing like your Pedersolis or Mirokus.  It will be much bigger and heavier.  Hopefully he won't use his fowler lock which is totally too small and the wrong design.  For those of you who have only handled  Pedersolis or Mirokus, you have never experienced a real Brown Bess, short land or long land.  If Jim accurately reproduces a long land Brown Bess, you will be in for a shock.

dave

Interesting.  I heard it'd be a 2nd Land Pattern 42" bbl - which would be the smartest choice possible over the 1st Land Pattern.
Smartest choice by what criteria? Many disagree.

As a Rev War reenactor, the easier to handle 2nd Land Pattern is a boon over the 1st Land Pattern, and I do believe that for the most part (1775 and on) it was the 2nd Land Pattern carried by the Regulars.
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Offline Jim Kibler

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Re: Jim Kibler's Bess kit
« Reply #10 on: September 25, 2025, 03:06:25 PM »
We have a fantastic original 1756 Long Land pattern that we we be copying in every detail including the lock.  The only change I anticipate making to the original is modifying some of the lock markings.

Thanks

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Re: Jim Kibler's Bess kit
« Reply #11 on: September 25, 2025, 03:08:32 PM »
Hi,
Unfortunately, there is no pattern of Brown Bess issued to British troops, except possibly the marine and militia musket, that bridges the F&I war and Rev war.  The pattern 1756 long land was not issued in time to serve in America during the F&I war but it was the most common musket issued to British troops during the first 2 years of the Rev war and was still made until 1791.  It was also the main gun issued to loyalists and it also armed many patriot troops.  On the patriot side there could be some old pattern 1742 long lands still in useable condition in colonial stores or in private ownership (stolen from the crown) so that pattern gun could bridge the two wars with American troops.  With the exception of the marine and militia musket, short lands did not start to show up among British troops until 1774 at the earliest.   Although the gun was the pattern 1769 short land, ordnance always issued older guns in store first before sending out new patterns.  The pattern dates indicate the year a pattern was accepted and production begun, not when they were issued  They had plenty of long lands in store at the beginning of the war so those got issued first.  The first big slug of short lands came in spring 1776 among troops sent to relieve Quebec City.  Those were labeled "Dublin Castle".  However, even then, the commander of the 24th foot demanded long lands and even delayed sailing for America to get them. Another slug came with some troops sent to capture Charleston in 1776.  Despite those regiments, the majority of British troops had long lands until 1777 or so.  On the patriot side there would be very few short lands until much later in the war.  They would come from captured ships and battlefield acquisitions. 

So the pattern 1756 long land with a lock simply marked "TOWER" and no date on the tail would be a good choice for patriots and British reenactors for much of the Rev War.  Although it was not used during the F&I war, it still looks a lot more authentic than any of the repro short lands carried by so many F&I reenactors today.  Regardless of pattern, the musket if made authentically, will be about 1-1.5 lbs heavier than your Pedersolis and Mirokus and much bigger in all dimensions.  I am sure Jim will do a great job on it and with his production methods, I suspect he could eventually produce both short and long lands without a lot of extra tooling.  He will turn the Brown Bess market on its head, which will be a good thing, long overdue.

dave 
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Re: Jim Kibler's Bess kit
« Reply #12 on: September 25, 2025, 03:14:01 PM »
We have a fantastic original 1756 Long Land pattern that we we be copying in every detail including the lock.  The only change I anticipate making to the original is modifying some of the lock markings.

Thanks

Wishing it was the Short Land Pattern but will gladly accept the Long Land Pattern, which will be heavier still whence a bayonet is stuck on.  >:(

When can I early order one?   ;D  8)
« Last Edit: September 25, 2025, 03:37:50 PM by rfd »
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Offline rich pierce

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Re: Jim Kibler's Bess kit
« Reply #13 on: September 25, 2025, 03:16:20 PM »
We have a fantastic original 1756 Long Land pattern that we we be copying in every detail including the lock.  The only change I anticipate making to the original is modifying some of the lock markings.

Thanks

Great news, Jim!
Andover, Vermont

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Re: Jim Kibler's Bess kit
« Reply #14 on: September 25, 2025, 05:03:42 PM »
We have a fantastic original 1756 Long Land pattern that we we be copying in every detail including the lock.  The only change I anticipate making to the original is modifying some of the lock markings.

Thanks

Wishing it was the Short Land Pattern but will gladly accept the Long Land Pattern, which will be heavier still whence a bayonet is stuck on.  >:(

When can I early order one?   ;D  8)

Actually, the short land musket only saved a few ounces but was a little handier  because of the shorter barrel.  The barrels on both long and short lands were 1.31"-1.41" across at the breech and 0.9-0.91" diameter at the muzzle.  They are big barrels.  In contrast Pedersoli barrels are 1.21" at the breech and 0.88" at the muzzle.  Here are some photos showing an authentic copy of a short land buttplate against a Pedersoli stock.








dave
« Last Edit: September 25, 2025, 05:12:38 PM by smart dog »
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Re: Jim Kibler's Bess kit
« Reply #15 on: September 25, 2025, 05:32:37 PM »
Being personal in considering my current age and physique, if I had a choice I'd absolutely prefer a shorter/handier/lighter Bess, and I'd bet the average 18th century Brit Regulars would've, too.  I see nothing gained by a longer bbl, either - again, considering what a Bess is with regards to 18th century warfare.  Then again, maybe a Regular would appreciate a 4" longer bayonet spear, with more terminal weight behind it.

BUT, I'll gladly welcome Jim's Long Land Pattern Bess!
« Last Edit: September 25, 2025, 05:56:08 PM by rfd »
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Offline Robby

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Re: Jim Kibler's Bess kit
« Reply #16 on: September 25, 2025, 05:55:52 PM »
I never had much interest in military flintlock guns of the era, nor kit building, but I'm going to get one of these. Probably the closest thing to an original most of us will ever own. Thank you Jim Kibler.
Robby
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Offline Daryl

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Re: Jim Kibler's Bess kit
« Reply #17 on: September 25, 2025, 09:21:15 PM »
David, thank you ever so much for the history lesson.
VERY MUCH appreciated.
Daryl

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Offline RichG

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Re: Jim Kibler's Bess kit
« Reply #18 on: September 26, 2025, 05:42:00 AM »
I'm deffinately interested. Hopefully the stock will have enough drop. I had a Pedersoli and there was no way to get your eye low enough to look down the barrel.

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Re: Jim Kibler's Bess kit
« Reply #19 on: September 26, 2025, 01:35:33 PM »
...I had a Pedersoli and there was no way to get your eye low enough to look down the barrel.

So true, almost defeats the need to aim.  8)
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Re: Jim Kibler's Bess kit
« Reply #20 on: September 26, 2025, 02:45:09 PM »
Hi,
Remember, Brown Besses were built to fixed patterns that were controlled as tightly as it was possible in the 18th century.  They were never built as shooters and sporting guns nor were they fitted to the soldier.  On pattern 1756s, drop at heel based on my tracings of originals ranges between 1.5"-2.0" .  That is not a lot but the saving grace compared with your Mirokus and Pedersolis is that the buttplate is much taller than those repros.  You have more gun to move up or down on your shoulder.  Look at my photo above and you can see the difference.  The short land muskets get even straighter in the stock.  The best Besses for fitting the shooter are the earliest patterns (1730, 1742, and 1748).  They often have drops at heel 2.5" or even a little greater.   Length of pull varied between 13 5/8" to almost 14".  Besses were not made by small gun shops like you had in the American colonies.  The British government contracted with many score contractors and tradesmen to produce the separate components and the metal stuff was then stored at the Tower or Dublin Castle until there were government warrants to set them up.  Then the stock wood was obtained and the guns assembled to be sent to storage or issued immediately.  John Hirst had a virtual monopoly setting up muskets and carbines for ordnance between 1758 and 1776.  In that time his workers assembled over 360,000 guns or 20,000 guns every year, or 385 guns a week, or 64 guns every day (6-day work week), or 5.3 guns every hour, in a 12 hour work day.  In the photo below I show a Pedersoli Bess and a pattern 1769 short land musket made by my shop.  You can see the differences in size and drop.  To really visualize it, put an 18" ruler against the top of the comb on the Pedersoli and note the edge passes over the screw holding on the flint cock.  Now do the same with the other musket and you will see the line goes through or slightly under that screw as it should.
   







dave
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Offline silky

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Re: Jim Kibler's Bess kit
« Reply #21 on: September 26, 2025, 06:37:09 PM »
If this drives lots of used Pedersoli and Miroku besses to the market, it will be an opportunity to get them fairly cheap and restock the parts into American-made muskets. Should be fun!
Tom Silkowski

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Re: Jim Kibler's Bess kit
« Reply #22 on: September 27, 2025, 04:10:57 PM »
Hi,
Remember, Brown Besses were built to fixed patterns that were controlled as tightly as it was possible in the 18th century.  They were never built as shooters and sporting guns nor were they fitted to the soldier.  On pattern 1756s, drop at heel based on my tracings of originals ranges between 1.5"-2.0" .  That is not a lot but the saving grace compared with your Mirokus and Pedersolis is that the buttplate is much taller than those repros.  You have more gun to move up or down on your shoulder.  Look at my photo above and you can see the difference.  The short land muskets get even straighter in the stock.  The best Besses for fitting the shooter are the earliest patterns (1730, 1742, and 1748).  They often have drops at heel 2.5" or even a little greater.   Length of pull varied between 13 5/8" to almost 14".  Besses were not made by small gun shops like you had in the American colonies.  The British government contracted with many score contractors and tradesmen to produce the separate components and the metal stuff was then stored at the Tower or Dublin Castle until there were government warrants to set them up.  Then the stock wood was obtained and the guns assembled to be sent to storage or issued immediately.  John Hirst had a virtual monopoly setting up muskets and carbines for ordnance between 1758 and 1776.  In that time his workers assembled over 360,000 guns or 20,000 guns every year, or 385 guns a week, or 64 guns every day (6-day work week), or 5.3 guns every hour, in a 12 hour work day.  In the photo below I show a Pedersoli Bess and a pattern 1769 short land musket made by my shop.  You can see the differences in size and drop.  To really visualize it, put an 18" ruler against the top of the comb on the Pedersoli and note the edge passes over the screw holding on the flint cock.  Now do the same with the other musket and you will see the line goes through or slightly under that screw as it should.
   







dave

Good scoop and hoping Jim's Bess kit will have that butt stock comb angle that will allow for actually aiming the weapon.
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Offline Bob Gerard

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Re: Jim Kibler's Bess kit
« Reply #23 on: September 28, 2025, 12:08:47 AM »
As a thought for Jim Kibler- there might be a large overseas market for your Brown Bess muskets. I am wondering that making select “overseas kits” might include barrels with no touch holes.
Just a thought.
The Brown Bess kit market may allow you to retire early 🤣

Offline Hudnut

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Re: Jim Kibler's Bess kit
« Reply #24 on: September 28, 2025, 02:35:15 AM »
I suspect that keeping up with US demand alone will keep the shop busy.  But export sales would certainly be probable.