Author Topic: Shaping Ramrod Thimbles  (Read 1087 times)

Offline Knobs

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Shaping Ramrod Thimbles
« on: September 28, 2025, 10:41:55 PM »
I'm building a re-creation of an Andres Albrecht rifle. Recently i was able to see one on display at the Snyder Museum at the Rock Ford Historical Museum in Lancaster PA.*

The pic below is one of the thimbles on the Albrecht rifle and under that is one that I made for the project rifle.








Can anyone suggest how to cut those nice thin rings? On my example I used a jewelers saw to cut the starting ring and then comnpleted it with a smooth Barrett file. My rings are crude by comparison.

Below is an example of an entry thimble made by Wallace Gusler.





In the post in which I found it Mr Gusler says he made those graceful rings with a chisel and cleaned them up with a triangle needle file. I tried to do that but the chisel point was all chewed up after going about 1/3 of the way around.

Any suggestions would be appreciated. I'm stuck on this project until I learn to make thimbles that I'm happy with.

Best Regards,

Keith K

* There are 15 rifles currently on display at the museum. Rifles by Beck, Dickert, and Resor are included among them. All in fantastic condition. For me is was worth the $90 hotel room and 7 hours of round trip driving!
« Last Edit: September 28, 2025, 10:45:25 PM by Knobs »

Offline Gaeckle

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Re: Shaping Ramrod Thimbles
« Reply #1 on: September 29, 2025, 01:37:40 AM »
When you say 'chisels', what kind of chisels were you using? If I were to replicate that I think I would use a jewlers saw to lightly score my line, then I would use a needle file, not a triangular one but a knife needle file and I would use a 0 cut followed up by a 2 cut

Offline Knobs

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Re: Shaping Ramrod Thimbles
« Reply #2 on: September 29, 2025, 01:51:31 AM »
Thanks for the reply. I've tried the jewelers saw followed by a knife needle file. It produced a dull groove.

It's possible that there's a high quality knife edge needle file that would work, but mine didn't.. Perhaps if I grind the sides off the needle making the flats safe? I might try that.

Best

Keith

Online rich pierce

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Re: Shaping Ramrod Thimbles
« Reply #3 on: September 29, 2025, 02:05:56 AM »
Brainstorming here (no lathe work), one could take a metal rod that fits in the thimbles, dovetail on a block of metal to make a stop, and figure out how to attach a fine point cutter. Stick the gizmo in and rotate. Wouldn’t work for the bands next to the skirt on the entry thimble.

I have knife shaped fine files that would do the trick manually.
Andover, Vermont

Offline Hatchet-Jack

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Re: Shaping Ramrod Thimbles
« Reply #4 on: September 29, 2025, 02:29:09 AM »
I use use a safe side triangle file. I put a piece of round stock in a vise. I guide the file with my thumb while I rotate the RR pipe back and forth to file in the lines. You can also use a jig with a guide like the one from Knob Mountain sells or make one.

Basically like in this video:
https://youtu.be/GlKhiWcTXYw?si=n-fAUpqb3OVCiC78

Offline Knobs

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Re: Shaping Ramrod Thimbles
« Reply #5 on: September 29, 2025, 03:38:30 AM »

I have knife shaped fine files that would do the trick manually.

Do you mind if i ask what brand of files you have?

Thanks

Keith

Offline Knobs

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Re: Shaping Ramrod Thimbles
« Reply #6 on: September 29, 2025, 03:51:41 AM »
I use use a safe side triangle file. I put a piece of round stock in a vise. I guide the file with my thumb while I rotate the RR pipe back and forth to file in the lines. You can also use a jig with a guide like the one from Knob Mountain sells or make one.

Basically like in this video:
https://youtu.be/GlKhiWcTXYw?si=n-fAUpqb3OVCiC78

Thanks for offering that. I appreciate the comment.

When I  tried my first thimble I used Clay Smith's technique. I got a decent wedding ring on it,  but that wasn't what I was looking for once I got done. The grooves also didn't have the crisp incised look of the example produced by Gusler. ( Granted, he's got a dark accent added to the rings.)

I'll readily admit my technique is probably part of the problem. This is my first build. There may be something I'm missing about tool technique.

Keith

Online rich pierce

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Re: Shaping Ramrod Thimbles
« Reply #7 on: September 29, 2025, 04:06:00 AM »

I have knife shaped fine files that would do the trick manually.

Do you mind if i ask what brand of files you have?

Thanks

Keith

Keith, here are my knife edge files, collected over the decades. I’ve rarely ordered new files one by one. Mostly I find new old stock somewhere or used collections on eBay or at garage sales. Cheap. These come tapered from the back to the edge, which is a narrow toothed edge. The #4 Disston is very fine indeed; much finer than the needle file #2.

Andover, Vermont

Offline StevenV

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Re: Shaping Ramrod Thimbles
« Reply #8 on: September 29, 2025, 04:41:09 AM »
Knobs where you at ,  I give a talk and demostration at Kempton Gun Makers fair on making pipes and nose cap. Contact me and I can walk you thru it , not difficult at all. I can send you the hand out that gives you most of the info.

MSC Item No.60237005 6 1/4" by 3 Square 0 cut Knurled Rd.
HDL needle file UPC #03538162, this is the file I use to make pipes. Make one side safe.

StevenV






































« Last Edit: September 29, 2025, 04:48:17 AM by whetrock »

Offline Gaeckle

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Re: Shaping Ramrod Thimbles
« Reply #9 on: September 29, 2025, 04:48:58 AM »
As far as needle files are concerned, I search Ebay and look for Swiss Grobet. They're pricey but the quality is excellent

Offline whetrock

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Re: Shaping Ramrod Thimbles
« Reply #10 on: September 29, 2025, 04:50:51 AM »
When Wallace said "chisel", I’m pretty sure he meant a cold chisel, for cutting metal. They are much harder and have a steeper angle than a wood chisel. He's just using it to set in the line. (This is done with a mandrel inside the thimble, for backing.) This chisel mark gives a file a place to ride in when starting, so that it can bite in where you want. It's much like putting a right-angle chisel cut on a line you want to cut into a board before you start with a handsaw--the chisel cut helps the saw cut in exactly where you want it, otherwise, it may slide around a bit before it bites in.

Rings are usually shaped with a series of fine files, including needle files, some of which have "safe" faces or edges--that's faces or edges with no teeth on them. A triangular file with a safe face will cut a very sharp groove, but it dulls quickly if pushed into the corner very hard. So most of the cutting with safe files is done with the cutting pressure downward at 90 degrees to the cutting face, or nearly so. So the main benefit of the safe edge is just to avoid cutting the opposing side.

You can buy files with safe edges. You can also make them by grinding off an edge and polishing the surface. If you do this with a belt sander you can do it easily by grinding with the axis of the tool, so that any tool marks left by the grinding are in line with the axis. If you use a circular grinder, it can be helpful to then hone the face to remove rough tool marks.
« Last Edit: September 29, 2025, 04:57:17 AM by whetrock »

Offline whetrock

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Re: Shaping Ramrod Thimbles
« Reply #11 on: September 29, 2025, 06:25:15 AM »
Here are photos of a jig I use when filing rings and doing the finish filing and polishing on thimble flats. The rod is held solid in the wood block, but can be pushed or pulled around as needed to adjust angle for filing or for lighting. Much better than just clamping a rod directly in the vise. The wood block has a slit in it so that when the vise is clamped snugly the block closes on the rod. Having the thimble on a rod like this allows you to easily rotate the thimble while making rings, which helps smooth up a ring.






This one is for 5/16 thimbles, so the rod is 5/16. I trim the rear face of the block with a couple of passes with a plane. The slit can spring in a little when gripped in the vise, so that the block grips the rod as tightly as I want. 





Here's a close up of an entry thimble I was working on today, including the back side. I usually don't complete filing on the extension until it has been adjusted to fit the curve of the forearm, as it sometimes requires minor adjustment with plyers or in a swage block before inletting.








Here's a close up of thimbles from a set I made for a bench copy of an NC style rifle. The original antique has thin iron pipes with thin rings like this. I use safety glasses with 2.5 magnification bifocals (available at Lowes) when doing this work. It seems to be plenty of magnification for my needs. Imperfections are visible at magnification, and can be corrected if you choose. Many small imperfections that you may choose to leave then basically disappear under regular non-magnified eyesight.







« Last Edit: September 29, 2025, 02:21:19 PM by whetrock »

Offline Knobs

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Re: Shaping Ramrod Thimbles
« Reply #12 on: September 29, 2025, 04:33:42 PM »
Nice!

What do you use to get those fine grooves?

Keith

Offline Knobs

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Re: Shaping Ramrod Thimbles
« Reply #13 on: September 29, 2025, 04:38:39 PM »
When you say 'chisels', what kind of chisels were you using?

I tried a 1" wide stanley wood chisel that I had just sharpened to a shaving sharp edge.

Keith

Offline whetrock

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Re: Shaping Ramrod Thimbles
« Reply #14 on: September 29, 2025, 05:06:09 PM »
For cutting those grooves I used several needle files with safe faces (teeth on some faces and no teeth on the others). I'll try to get some photos for you later today.

Regarding the chisel, wood chisels are softer steel, and the bevel is too sharp. You need a small cold chisel. Here's a photo showing the bevel of a small one I use. It is about 1/4" wide.




« Last Edit: September 29, 2025, 05:57:50 PM by whetrock »

Offline P.W.Berkuta

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Re: Shaping Ramrod Thimbles
« Reply #15 on: September 29, 2025, 06:57:59 PM »
I think the first thing is to find the correct metal thickness to use for the thimbles. If too thin then a file or sharp chisel could cut through the thin metal quickly. Regular needle files do not have a sharp enough pointed edge without making one side "safe".
"The person who says it cannot be done should not interrupt the person who is doing it." - Chinese proverb

Offline Knobs

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Re: Shaping Ramrod Thimbles
« Reply #16 on: September 29, 2025, 07:26:54 PM »
I think the first thing is to find the correct metal thickness to use for the thimbles.

I'm using 40 thou C260 brass sheet thickness. It's working fine so far.

Offline Knobs

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Re: Shaping Ramrod Thimbles
« Reply #17 on: September 29, 2025, 10:09:11 PM »



Looks similar to a cape chisel. I haven't seen the ones I have/had in years but they were way too big. Just ordered one in 3/16".

Thanks

Keith

Offline bluenoser

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Re: Shaping Ramrod Thimbles
« Reply #18 on: September 30, 2025, 02:34:31 AM »
You can make a decent quality small cold or cape chisel by carefully regrinding the tip of a GOOD quality nail set.  Never would have thought of it if I hadn't bought one along with a couple small Starrett drift punches at a yard sale last week.  It is a reworked Stanley nail set and cuts mild steel just fine.  Opens up a world of opportunities for making specialized metal cutting chisels.

Online rich pierce

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Re: Shaping Ramrod Thimbles
« Reply #19 on: September 30, 2025, 02:57:13 AM »
For you who use chisels, please explain when and how. After the thimble is formed? Before? If after, with a mandrel in the thimble?  Walk it along?
Thanks
Andover, Vermont

Offline Knobs

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Re: Shaping Ramrod Thimbles
« Reply #20 on: September 30, 2025, 09:02:08 PM »
Quote from: whetrock link=topic=86284.msg841831#msg841831 date=1759154769


[url=https://ibb.co/Ldjt6Sy5
[/url]

Thanks for the guidance on the chisel type. I think this'll work.

The pic below is one of my rejected thimbles. I chiseled a half  ring on the far right side and it's accented with sharpie. You can compare it with other attempts I made on the same thimble.




Of course there's going to be a learning curve and I still need to  figure out the filing touch up, but it seems to be a solid step in the right direction.

Time will tell if the chisel holds it's point, but it's already surpassd the wood chisel! LOL

Knobs

Offline whetrock

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Re: Shaping Ramrod Thimbles
« Reply #21 on: September 30, 2025, 10:51:14 PM »
Knobs, looks like you are making progress. You might want to try not cutting so deep with the chisel. If you cut too deeply, you risk weakening the thimble tube. You don't need the chisel mark to be as deep as the groove will be. The chisel mark is really only needed to give a place for the file to start.

I had an entry thimble blank already made up, so today at lunch break I started a ring, so as to get a few photos. Obviously, this is a steel thimble. I do a lot of cold forging and swaging on these before I start filing.




Rich asked if we cut with the chisel before or after wrapping up the tube. I do it afterward. With steel, and especially with the entry thimble, I can’t control the folding/wrapping well enough to predict exactly how it’s all going to mate up. So I make the cut sheet very slightly longer than needed, then file off a little bit as needed once the tube is formed. With steel, cold forging the flats also helps get the sheet to wrap tightly around the mandrel. I also hammer the lip around a mandrel to round everything up. When that’s done, I file the outside of the lip a little. This is for a thimble that will have a rounded ring that goes to the very edge, such as those in the photos I posted earlier. Some of this cold forging is done on an anvil that sits near my bench. Some is done with the blank in the vise. Just depends on what I need to get at.

When that’s all done, then I’m ready for layout. I’m sure there are lots of ways to do the layout. I like to just draw the ring on with a pencil first, to play with where I want it. Then I come back in and basically color in the whole ring with a wide tip permanent marker. So I don’t just draw the line. I black in the whole ring. I like the marker because the drawn-on ring gives me a feel for the proportions. If I don’t like it, I wipe if off and do it again. I find I get better results with this rather organic approach than I have with trying to do a more mechanical layout with coloring fluid and scribes, etc. We all have our preferences, of course. For me, building a flintlock is an organic exercise. I don’t actually measure much at all.  After initial layout I pull the item out of the vise and have a good look at it, and flip it around and look at it from different angles. This is important for this sort of organic layout. We all have a dominant eye, and if we only look at something from one position, without flipping it around, then the dominant eye will trick us into skewing things.
 
The chisel is next. The photo shows how I hold the thimble, with a mandrel in the hole. This is the same mandrel I used in folding/wrapping it. I start at the top and just make a shallow mark right along the edge of the blacked-out "ring". Then another one beside it. Then connect the dots, so to speak. I make very shallow cuts to start with, and if one of the marks is slightly off or not straight, then I can angle the chisel and adjust the position with a follow up blow, deepening the notch to one side or the other, adjusting until I’m satisfied. When I’m satisfied with the position, then I can deepen the cut if I feel it is necessary, but it’s usually not. The chisel mark is just a shallow groove for the file to ride in as it starts. That's how I do it, anyway. Then I start filing. On the thimble in these photos I have already started the filing on the top.




I do the initial shaping of the rings with a pillar file. Mine is a double cut, rectangular in cross-section, parallel sides, and two safe edges. These are expensive, so I use it only where this type file is needed, and switch to cheaper flat files when doing flats, etc.



I come back in with needle files for cleanup. I use several different files. The one on the right in this photo is a triangular file that I ground and honed to make a safe side. You are looking at the safe side of that one. The flat file on the left also has safe edges.





I always make the entry thimble first. It’s the hardest for me. I find it easier to make the others match it. I always complete the rings before I do any work on the flats. I do the rings for all three thimbles before I file any of the flats. That way I can concentrate on making the rings match.

I do not grip the ends of the tube in the vise. I used to do that, but found it sometimes messed up the ends—the edges of the hole. So I started making the tabs a little longer and then grip the thimble by the tab, as in this photo. The extra gets cut off and put in the scrap box. I just use a six inch mill file for the flats. Sometimes, as with the one in this photo, the metal is thicker than I want, and I cut some away with a bench grinder first. Thus the rough surface in this photo.




I use the jig I showed earlier for final shaping and polishing of flats. The jig allows me to rotate the thimble easily, to get a smooth, round shape. Here’s a photo that helps explain that. The thimble is rotated into the file while the file is pushed forward. In this photo the thimble is basically done, and I'm just going back to clean up a few scratches.




A lot of text here. Sorry about that. Hope it is helpful.

« Last Edit: October 01, 2025, 02:23:59 AM by whetrock »

Offline Knobs

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Re: Shaping Ramrod Thimbles
« Reply #22 on: October 01, 2025, 02:49:15 AM »
Fantastic! Thanks for taking the time to go into so much detail.

It's not just the technique that excites me, it's the competition. I definitely gotta step my game up. Thanks for giving me that motivation.

Thimble forging. How cool is that? It's something that Wallace Gusler did on a project gun he talked about here. I'l get to it, but it's not on the front burner right now.

Right now I'm focused on reproducing the thimbles that Andres Albrecht used in his work. If you look closely, he carried the flats over the rings. Looks like he made the rings first, but they weren''t the holy grail.



I'll grind the chisel tip angles a bit steeper and go for less depth & see how that pans out.

Thanks a million. I hope we get a chance to meet.

Keith
« Last Edit: October 01, 2025, 02:55:04 AM by Knobs »

Offline whetrock

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Re: Shaping Ramrod Thimbles
« Reply #23 on: October 01, 2025, 06:20:22 AM »
Thanks, Keith. Yes, I'd enjoy meeting you as well.

There are a half dozen or so basic ways to make these things. Sometimes the flats are higher, and sometimes lower. Sometimes they are forged, and sometimes not. Sometimes grooves are rounded, and sometimes their edges are left angular. When I click on your image of the Albrecht thimbles the image will enlarge, and that helps a lot, but the reflection off the brass still makes it a little hard to discern. And there is only just one image, from one perspective. I’m not convinced at this point that the flat come up onto the rings. I think that may be an optical illusion from the reflection.

Sometimes tool marks give indications of how something was done. But other times it's just a matter of working out an order of procedure that will produce the same effect. So trying this and that until you figure it out is sometimes the best way to learn it.

This is what I think I see:

1. It looks like the outside ring (on the left) is more rounded, at least on the lower, more exposed edge. That may be from wear. It’s hard to tell from the photo, but it may have more squared look beside the wood.

2. The groove between the two rings has an angular edge on both sides. It is possible that the groove was cut with a chisel and then cleaned up with a fine triangular file. It’s also possible that it was just done with a file. In either case, the edges are not rounded over. (This is in contrast to what I showed with the thimbles in photos I posted above. For more rounded rings like I showed, I only used the file to start the cut, then cut in with the file and rounded the rings. With these on the Albrecht rifle, the cut looks deeper and the edges are not rounded over. But I can’t tell from the photos exactly how he cut the groove.)

3. The flats are cut into the round tube of the thimble blank, leaving the peaks at the intersections even with the angular edges of the rings. He did not forge this thimble. It was filed out.

4. The opposing ring (on the right side) is made the same way as it’s opposite. Its edges are fairly angular (not rounded up like a wedding ring).

5. He wasn't trying to get perfection. First, (a) the two inside rings (one on either end of the flats) might be expected to match, but he didn’t make them exactly the same width. (b) Second, the two flats facing us in the image do not intersect with the ring in front of them exactly the same. These are not “mistakes”. They just tell us that he was working fast, was not overly concerned with his layout, and he almost certainly was not using magnification.

6. The grooves are not exactly consistent in width. This variation could be from his tools and technique, but it might be from wear. My guess is that the groove is triangular in cross section (from the double bevel of a chisel or from a triangular file, I can’t tell which), and so when the surface wears, it causes the groove to seem as if it grows narrow at that worn spot. Anyway, the variation suggests that the groove was not cut with a jewelers saw. If it were, we could expect it to be consistent in width.

7. As it sits now, the extension sits proud of the wood just a little. When the rifle was new the extension was almost certainly seated flush. Wear and minor shrinkage will cause inlays to sit up just a bit like this. The edges of the exposed brass are all worn and rounded in these areas. It’s been that way a long time.

If I was trying to make exactly what we see here, I'd try to do what I described, and then I'd soften the edges with some 600 grit paper. (There should be nothing on a long rifle that will scratch or cut you.) But they aren't rounded wedding rings. I'm sorry that my earlier posts and images may have been confusing in that they differed on that detail.

My comments about Albrecht's technique are not criticism. Little irregularities make an antique rifle charming. They are what show that it is handmade. If the layout and execution is done too perfectly, then a rifle begins to look sterile, and machine made. Some modern builders try to correct and perfect all these little details and polish out tool marks that the old smiths usually left as they were. It's a philosophical perspective, and each of us is entitled to his own approach. But I like seeing new work that looks like old work, and that includes little imperfections that come from using the same techniques the old smiths used. I still have a lot to learn myself, but in terms of philosophy, I think learning to make things the way the old guys made them is the best way to get the results I want.




« Last Edit: October 01, 2025, 04:20:15 PM by whetrock »

Offline Knobs

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Re: Shaping Ramrod Thimbles
« Reply #24 on: October 01, 2025, 03:34:04 PM »
Your post and the one by SteveV might not have been EXACTLY what i was looking for but they were VERY informative and I've gone over them several times.

 Remember I started off trting to form wedding band rings and not executing as well as i hoped so none of your time was wasted on myself and others who will follow.

THANK YOU BOTH!

I appreciate your comments on the Albrecht thimble. I had the sense that he was executing in a workmanlike manner but one never knows who did what on a 250 year old rifle. Some of that could have been done by those coming after who were cleaning up the rifle.

I did some net sleuthing and it looks like jewelers saws weren't developed until the mid 19th century, so I'm betting Albrecht used a chisel or an engraver.

A fellow builder who used to frame houses for me used to say, "You're only as good as your tools." I'll be picking up some files from Rio Grande Jewelry Supply.

Best

Keith



« Last Edit: October 03, 2025, 02:17:44 AM by Knobs »