First shots with early Hawken

[Chocktaw Brave]

I finally got to shoot my recently completed flintlock hawken.
The flash hole position looked good during the build, but when I tore it all down, finished everything and put it back together moved



So the results of my first shots was;
Number one very good ignition
Number two flash in the pan
Number three flash in the pan
After cleaning the hole and adding powder, I had a delayed ignition.
Cleaned it really good and third shot with a delayed ignition as well.

So I’m thinking I can use an endmill and open up the hole, slightly rearward and higher than it is and then insert a white lightning liner. this should not only reposition it, but also make for a quicker ignition.


Forgot to add a picture of the rifle.

[Chocktaw Brave]

Something like this.

[HighUintas]

Do you currently have a liner in there or is it just a drilled vent hole?

If there is currently a white lightning liner, I probably wouldn't monkey with it because I think the position looks ok and wouldn't think that would cause ignition issues based on Larry pletchers tests. But I don't have an end mill so it would be harder for me to fix.

[Chocktaw Brave]

The current hole is just a drilled 1/16 inch hole. I was worried about putting a liner in to begin with because it was so close to the parting line between the breach plug and the barrel.
But now it seems like I have plenty of room.

I forgot to mention it’s 50 caliber, I was shooting .490 round balls with a .010 patch and using 60 grains of 3F powder for the charge. 4F powder in the pan.

[rich pierce]

In my experience that ball of fire in the pan didn’t care about a 1/16” or even 1/8” difference in position. It’s a ball of fire.

If not using a liner I would open the hole to 0.070”.  If I can’t see or feel the powder with a pick- feeling a crunch- I know the powder is not compressed against the touchhole.

[bluenoser]

I don't think the location of the vent is the reason for the unreliable ignition.  I believe it is likely the length of the straight-walled flash channel.  I had a similar problem with a flint Hawken I built way back in the 1980s.  Ignition was reliable after I internally coned the flash channel using the nifty little tool one of our members makes/made.

[Chocktaw Brave]

I’ve seen those inside coning tools. It looks like it would work, but I would have to take the breech plug out which would open up an entire entirely new can of worms.

I’m thinking installing a liner would do the same thing and be a lot easier for me. Especially if it’s a quality liner like the internally coned white lightning.

[JEH]

You could mark exactly where you want the touch hole liner and plunge cut the hole in a mill. Then tap and install

[smylee grouch]

Did you have much fouling with those first shots? Your ball patch combo sounds a little lose to me

[Chocktaw Brave]

Well, I swabbed the barrel after each shot, dirty, but not excessive. I did not clean the flash hole after 1st shot.

Yes my plan is use a center cutting end mill to make the initial hole(.197/5mm) then open up to a #7 drill. My liner is 1/4 x 32

The barrel is 1 inch across the flats, I’m thinking you’re correct and it being a really long, narrow flash channel, causing the problem

[whetrock]

Changing to a different touch hole arrangement might improve things, but I don't think that's your main problem, or at least it isn't the only problem. In your earlier post, you wrote:

      So the results of my first shots was;
      Number one very good ignition
      Number two flash in the pan
      Number three flash in the pan
      After cleaning the hole and adding powder, I had a delayed ignition.
      Cleaned it really good and third shot with a delayed ignition as well.

Maybe I misunderstood something, but the fact that you had very good ignition when the rifle had not previously been fired makes me think that the main problem is with fouling and swabbing habits. That first shot in a new rifle was with everything perfectly clean. It was downhill from there.

I haven't had a rifle with that sort of breech plug in many, many years. But I recall also having problems. With that sort of breech plug, there is a powder chamber inside the breach plug. So, there is basically a right-angle connection between the chamber in the breech plug and the drilled touch hole. Am I right? You mentioned swabbing after each shot. Did you also swab that breech plug chamber as well? Swabbing that chamber sometimes takes a special jag, as the jag used for the bore is often too large and will not enter it. If you only swabbed the bore, were you accidentally pushing fowling down into that chamber, thus causing trouble for your ignition?  Was the patch you used for swabbing damp, and how damp? Did it leave moisture in the breech plug chamber?  You mentioned cleaning the hole and said you "cleaned it really good". Did you use a pick to clean the touch hole after swabbing, so as to clean out any debris that might have gotten pushed into the hole?
 
I use a pick after any swabbing. I also use a pick after loading, before priming. The pick clears the hole itself and should also touch and crunch powder. As Rich said

If I can’t see or feel the powder with a pick- feeling a crunch- I know the powder is not compressed against the touchhole.

(The pick should be made in such a way that it can fully pass through the hole into the bore without binding, so that it touches powder. I also push it into the powder and feel a crunch. A simple round wire is best, as you don't want to use anything that will bind in the hole. I realize that many people do not use picks. The topic was discussed on here a few months ago.)

PS: Very nice looking rifle.

[Daryl]

The height is just fine and so is the position. Like Rich said, with merely a hole in the barrel, it needs to be larger.
As wetrock indicated, swabbing or wiping the bore between shots, will plug or partially plug a vent, let alone a straight sided hole.
A 1" bl. and .50 cal. has quite a wall of steel for the flash to go through. If staying with a drilled hole, it must be larger.

[alacran]

Dany Caywood cones his barrels from the outside. Don't bother to go to his website for a photo of this because there isn't one. A lot of guys used to use a set screw a  touch hole liner. That accomplishes the same thing. Tom Snyders inside coning tool is easy peasy and inexpensive.

[Chocktaw Brave]

You know, I was thinking about that smaller chamber at the bottom of the barrel. I do not believe the Jag I use allow the patch to go into that chamber. I will try and find pistol swab to see see if I can get down in there.
Or order a smaller caliber jag for my ramrod. But I’ll have to tie the patch on, so I don’t lose it.

[whetrock]

There are a couple of ways to make these jags. See this thread:

https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=84523.0


Note that if a patch is wrapped around the larger diameter portion, then it won't (or shouldn't) come off.

If simply cleaning with a smaller jag, you may want to add centering collar (basically, a brass washer) that will help it align with the smaller hole. If the patch can wrap around the collar, then you may not have trouble with it coming off.

I keep a small patch puller worm (patch grabber) in my bag for the rare occasion when I need to retrieve a patch that came off a jag. Here's a photo of one from eBay.

[Ky-Flinter]

....... but I would have to take the breech plug out which would open up an entire entirely new can of worms.

CB,

If you install a touch-hole liner, be careful that it doesn't extend into the smaller chamber.  I like to install the liner with the breech plug out, so the liner can be trimmed as needed so it doesn't extend into the bore (or chamber, in this case.).  Or measure carefully and trim it before installation.

Ron

[whetrock]

....... but I would have to take the breech plug out which would open up an entire entirely new can of worms.

CB,

If you install a touch-hole liner, be careful that it doesn't extend into the smaller chamber.  I like to install the liner with the breech plug out, so the liner can be trimmed as needed so it doesn't extend into the bore (or chamber, in this case.).  Or measure carefully and trim it before installation.

Ron

If you do it with the plug out, then it's easy to see and deal with any burrs that would grab a patch. It's also helpful to use a round "burr" type cutter (sometimes called a "cherry") and smooth up the edge just a bit, where the touch hole connects to the chamber, as that helps keep that edge from grabbing a patch.

[Chocktaw Brave]

Got it!
Thank you, I ordered some smaller jags to be able to get into the smaller hole. I’m gonna do some experiments with cleaning and see how much that actually helps.

[bluenoser]

I think a fouling scraper/breech plug scraper would likely be the best tool for cleaning the powder chamber.  Check them out on Track or Kibler's website.

[smylee grouch]

Index the plug\barrel on the bottom flat, de breech and open up the anti chamber to a max but safe dia then instal liner before re breeding to the index mark.

[rich pierce]

A barrel with a patent breech can have a very large effective wall thickness for the flash to transit. Some have been made to circumvent this possible issue. Some have not.

[smylee grouch]

Oh,, BTW, use a slotted tip jag with a flannel cleaning patch to clear that anti chamber

[Chocktaw Brave]

I configured a cleaning rod to get a brush and a swab into the powder chamber. I verified it by putting a wire through the flash hole. Surprisingly I did not get that much fouling out of it. I did order a few smaller jags and a worm from TOTW to make it easier.
I was going to add in some flints, but it appears EVERYONE is out of stock.

[Steeltrap]

Here's a pic of my post install GM barrel T\C "drop in".  The ignition is just as reliable as any of the other 4 flintlocks I have with better locks. The "timing" is just a fraction of a second slower with this original T\C lock....but it's not enough to warrant a replacement lock.

BTW, don't "fill up" the pan where the pan powder covers the flash hole. Up to the bottom will work just fine.

[Daryl]

Steeltrap, did you see the videos on vent location and vent covered in powder firing times in Muzzles Blasts magazine?