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Author Topic: First shots with early Hawken  (Read 1704 times)

Offline Chocktaw Brave

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Re: First shots with early Hawken
« Reply #25 on: October 23, 2025, 07:53:35 AM »
I would like to see those videos. How does one find them?

Offline Daryl

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Re: First shots with early Hawken
« Reply #26 on: October 23, 2025, 05:34:53 PM »
Can't help with that but what was found was that a vent at the bottom of the pan, completely covered with powder, produced the fastest ignition. These tests were done with white lightning liners.
Sam's "banking the powder away" from the vent, produced the slowest ignition.
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V

Online Steeltrap

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Re: First shots with early Hawken
« Reply #27 on: October 24, 2025, 12:11:25 AM »
Steeltrap, did you see the videos on vent location and vent covered in powder firing times in Muzzles Blasts magazine?

No, I did not. What did I miss?

Offline whetrock

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Re: First shots with early Hawken
« Reply #28 on: October 24, 2025, 01:52:23 AM »
I think there may be a slight misunderstanding of Pletch's results as based on the video. In a written summary posted on the other forum (see link below), he gives the following numbers, which (if I understand him correctly) seems to imply that level is slightly faster than covering the vent. You guys have a look for yourself.

QUOTED

          The averages for the 10 trials are:
          level prime ----------- .036
          covering the vent--------.040
          banked away from vent -- .044

          As a comparison in the earlier test with normal vent placement the times were:
          banked away ------------.043
          close to vent ----------.036

Here's the link:
https://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/threads/timing-low-vent-position.37709/


If I've misunderstood something, let me know. I'm not an expert on this stuff.


Offline Chocktaw Brave

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Re: First shots with early Hawken
« Reply #29 on: October 24, 2025, 03:22:50 AM »
I have always read, been told that the flash hole should be at the sunrise position across the flats of the pan.
I’m sure other positions can and will work, but isn’t this supposed to be the optimum position?
My frizzen has the raised portion that goes down into the pan and seals it better. So for me, putting too much powder in the pan would defeat the purpose of this seal correct?

Offline smylee grouch

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Re: First shots with early Hawken
« Reply #30 on: October 24, 2025, 03:23:56 AM »
Thata how I interput it as well Whetrock.  So I like to see the vent hole ABOVE  the bottom of the pan if possible

Offline whetrock

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Re: First shots with early Hawken
« Reply #31 on: October 24, 2025, 03:59:42 AM »
I have always read, been told that the flash hole should be at the sunrise position across the flats of the pan.
I’m sure other positions can and will work, but isn’t this supposed to be the optimum position?
My frizzen has the raised portion that goes down into the pan and seals it better. So for me, putting too much powder in the pan would defeat the purpose of this seal correct?

It seems to me that if you were to overfill your pan, then the cover would compress the powder (at least) and might even not completely close. That would not do you any good. The traditional logic has been not to cover the hole, or at least not to completely cover it. But I think one reason for that design of pan cover is that the cover itself helps keep powder from covering the hole. If it were to be covered, then when you close the frizzen, the pan cover will push the powder down so that the hole is not covered. Anyway, the numbers Pletch posted, which I quoted above, seem to support that traditional logic of not covering the hole. At least that's how I understand it. Again, I'm not claiming to be an expert.

Where you want to put the hole vertically (near the bottom, in the middle, or at sunrise) is then a matter of how much powder you want to put in the pan. If you put the hole at the bottom, then you can't put much powder in there without covering the hole. If in contrast you put it halfway up/down, then you can put in some powder without covering it. If you put it a little higher (at Sunrise, for example) then you can use more powder without covering the hole. (You could probably even use more than is really needed. You can test for yourself and see how much powder you want to use. Many people find that a pinch is actually enough, but some guys like to fill the pan. Either way, as long as it works.)

I build them with the hole at "sunrise" position. Three reasons. 1. It's traditional. (The best English rifles and shotguns have it at that position.) 2. I don't want to cover the hole, as discussed above. 3. I want to be able to use a pick effectively. This last reason is really important, but I think it is seldom understood.

How and when to use a pick is important. It is very common for fouling to obstruct the touch hole channel, especially after swabbing. Pletch mentions this in one of his Muzzleblast write ups. But in the writeup I am mentioning, he only seems to use the pick to clear that hole after swabbing. Basically, he uses the pick to push out fouling that was introduced into the hole during the swabbing process. He observed (through a drilled "observation hole" directly across from the touch hole) that the swab pushes fouling down to the vent hole and into the hole, and then when the swab is withdrawn, some of the fouling stayed in the hole. He then used the pick to try to push it out. But he noticed that the pick would push it out, but the fouling would be stuck to the pick and as the pick was pulled back it would carry the fouling right back into the touch hole as the pick was withdrawn. So, it would push it out, and then deposit it right back where it had been before. And so he wondered then, if the pick was useful. (His solution was to use a pipe cleaner.)

I would suggest that the pick is indeed useful, but when you use it is crucial. I would suggest that the most important time to use the pick is not immediately after swabbing (although that's fine, too). I would recommend, and many shooters would agree, that the most useful time to use the pick is AFTER the bore is charged and the ball seated. Then use the pick to clear the hole and push the pick all the way into the powder until you hear and feel it crunch. (I push it at least half way across the bore, and I hear "crunch, crunch." (I make my picks in such a way that I can push them all the way until they hit the other side of the bore wall if I want without them binding in the hole.) I don't think it would be easy to do experiments with this, as the whole process is hidden, but I think two things are going on there. First, you are clearing the channel, and that eliminates the "fuse effect", which can cause an obvious delay in ignition. Second, if there is a fowling obstruction in the vent channel or at the opening into the bore, pushing that obstruction into the powder allows the obstruction to remain in the powder, so that when you pull the pick out, the fouling doesn't just get carried right back to where it started.

So why do I think sunrise is a good position for using a pick? Because a straight, slightly flexible pick can go all the way into a vent positioned at sunrise without binding. That's to say it rides across the lip of the pan and into the hole very easily. If, in contrast, the hole is positioned lower, then the pick cannot enter without either bending or having been pre-bent. I've seen picks made that way, bent, but I find it easier to use a straight pick. (And most antiques picks that I have seen documented were of the straight type.) If the hole is at sunrise, and the pick is straight and very slightly flexible, then it can enter and never bind. It makes for very easy use of the pick.

While I'm on the topic, I should emphasize that the pick should never damage or enlarge the vent at all. In my opinion, a simple round wire is best. Picks are not digging tools. They are pushing tools.

You guys think about it, and maybe give it a try.

Whetrock
 
PS: I've not been very consistent here, and I probably used "vent", "vent hole", "hole", and "touch hole". I think Chocktaw Brave used "flash hole". These words all mean the same thing.
« Last Edit: October 24, 2025, 04:39:09 AM by whetrock »

Offline Chocktaw Brave

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Re: First shots with early Hawken
« Reply #32 on: November 01, 2025, 08:23:32 PM »
Update, I just finished installing a white lightning liner. The hole came out right where I wanted.
I used a 5 mm center cut end mill to punch the hole offset over the existing hole.
Then I followed with a number three drillbit, and a 1/4” x32 tap. Then I opened up the hole to 063.
I think it came out pretty good for the location.
Hopefully tomorrow, I’ll be able to get to the range and see how much of a difference it makes.





Here’s the before picture again;



« Last Edit: November 01, 2025, 08:41:44 PM by Chocktaw Brave »

Offline Daryl

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Re: First shots with early Hawken
« Reply #33 on: November 01, 2025, 08:59:24 PM »
The only tests I saw, were those that Pletch posted here. The timing posted above certainly shows the  powder "below" the vent as being faster than when covered.
Pretty sure he had noted covered and the vent at the bottom being faster, when he first posted the results here and in the Muzzle Blasts" magazine.
I was not the only one here who questioned this in the original thread here as we were all surprised by this. Perhaps subsequent testing show the original "work" as being an anomalous.
« Last Edit: November 01, 2025, 09:31:48 PM by Daryl »
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V

Offline Chocktaw Brave

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Re: First shots with early Hawken
« Reply #34 on: November 02, 2025, 11:58:15 PM »
I managed to go to the range this morning. Vast improvement over the last trip. I shot about 15 shots, swapping the bore after number five, and number 10.
Very quick ignition, I believe that the shape of this liner is 90% of the improvement over the exact location of the liner.