Pedersoli 1763 / 1766 Charleville

[rfd]

Bought this kit off DGW.  Pulled the breech plug and pleased to see the touch hole drilling didn't "scar" the plug face, returned to the bbl with Nikal.  That big comb had to get made nicer, so I rasped, sanded, scraped to a more pleasing and functional condition.  Removed much wood in the overall stock reshaping.  The metal furniture took Forever to get into at least an "in service" condition.  One wipe of Laurel Mountain Forge American Walnut and then six careful wipes of Tru-Oil with very fine 3M synthetic abrasive.  Nice.  Took it the Regiment range shoot today and baptized it with patched ball loads, very nice shooter.  Handed it over to young lad Michael, its new owner/caretaker for the maiden and he had some good shooting fun.

(select, copy and paste the YouTube video link in a new window) ...

Code: [Select]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vt2mXoVC_hE

[FALout]

Had one many years ago, liked it a lot, don’t remember why I got rid of it. 

[FlinterNick]

I’ve made a few of these kits.

Problem with this particular pattern by Pedersoli its not true to any specific design, which is why I reject defrab requests in particular the butt stock which doesn’t have enough wood to dish in the flutes like the original.

[rfd]

I’ve made a few of these kits.

Problem with this particular pattern by Pedersoli its not true to any specific design, which is why I reject defrab requests in particular the butt stock which doesn’t have enough wood to dish in the flutes like the original.

Yup, knew of its period incorrectness, wish it wasn't so, but could care less about that minutiae in the long run for its intended reenactment purposes.  It isn't as if there's much cost effective choices for repro 18th c military muskets.  Or perhaps I should say "was" with regards to Jim's forthcoming Bessie.  Could only hope for the same with a Charlie, as that's the more appropriate Continental Army musket ... other than a good militia fowler, that Jim already offers and what I currently use along with a plug bayonet.

[FlinterNick]

I’ve made a few of these kits.

Problem with this particular pattern by Pedersoli its not true to any specific design, which is why I reject defrab requests in particular the butt stock which doesn’t have enough wood to dish in the flutes like the original.

Yup, knew of its period incorrectness, wish it wasn't so, but could care less about that minutiae in the long run for its intended reenactment purposes.  It isn't as if there's much cost effective choices for repro 18th c military muskets.  Or perhaps I should say "was" with regards to Jim's forthcoming Bessie.  Could only hope for the same with a Charlie, as that's the more appropriate Continental Army musket ... other than a good militia fowler, that Jim already offers and what I currently use along with a plug bayonet.

I’ve had the opportunity to view 5 original 1763’ muskets. Not very close at all. Even the bands are too heavy.

Most of the weight in a 1763 was in the barrel, the breeches i measured were as large as 1.67 top down and side to side around 1.55, in .72 cal with a weight of around 5.5 lbs. Moller’s 1763 was the largest and was modified with a weight around 11 lbs. the barrel was nearly 2” tall at the breech.

[Clark Badgett]

The breech plugs should probably be notched.

[rfd]

The breech plugs should probably be notched.

What notch and why?

[FlinterNick]

I doesnt’ need to be notched if the touch hole is just ahead of the face of the plug, all i would do is cone the inside of the touch hole.

Original 1763’s breech plugs were always notched, i say this because the 3 barrels i was able to disassemble were all notched.  They did this because they they wanted to avoid drilling into the face because it would break drill bits which were very expensive. some notches are significant, some are not.

[rfd]

I doesnt’ need to be notched if the touch hole is just ahead of the face of the plug, all i would do is cone the inside of the touch hole.

Original 1763’s breech plugs were always notched, i say this because the 3 barrels i was able to disassemble were all notched.  They did this because they they wanted to avoid drilling into the face because it would break drill bits which were very expensive. some notches are significant, some are not.

Where is the plug face notch?

Most of the offshore plug faces have a trough where the touch hole drilling caught some of the breech plug face, like this Pedi Bess ...



... which require opening up for more reliable ignition ...



Is that the notch you speak of?

There is no way I'd file or Dremel into a flat breech face; dead flat is best, at least for me.

[FlinterNick]

I doesnt’ need to be notched if the touch hole is just ahead of the face of the plug, all i would do is cone the inside of the touch hole.

Original 1763’s breech plugs were always notched, i say this because the 3 barrels i was able to disassemble were all notched.  They did this because they they wanted to avoid drilling into the face because it would break drill bits which were very expensive. some notches are significant, some are not.

Where is the plug face notch?

Most of the offshore plug faces have a trough where the touch hole drilling caught some of the breech plug face, like this Pedi Bess ...



... which require opening up for more reliable ignition ...



Is that the notch you speak of?

There is no way I'd file or Dremel into a flat breech face; dead flat is best, at least for me.

Here are some originals

[rfd]

I doesnt’ need to be notched if the touch hole is just ahead of the face of the plug, all i would do is cone the inside of the touch hole.

Original 1763’s breech plugs were always notched, i say this because the 3 barrels i was able to disassemble were all notched.  They did this because they they wanted to avoid drilling into the face because it would break drill bits which were very expensive. some notches are significant, some are not.

Where is the plug face notch?

Most of the offshore plug faces have a trough where the touch hole drilling caught some of the breech plug face, like this Pedi Bess ...



... which require opening up for more reliable ignition ...



Is that the notch you speak of?

There is no way I'd file or Dremel into a flat breech face; dead flat is best, at least for me.

Here are some originals

YIKES!  To me, those are nothing short of Horrible breech plugs.  Some smith measured once instead of six times before drilling. Those notches will be a major pain for gathering and holding fired residue that will require constant attention to eliminate pan flashes.  I dunno if such large cavities will be of firing pressures concerns, considering the metallurgy of those dayze.  Just junk to me, IMHO.

[whetrock]

Those old plugs look pretty rough.

What was done in the "good old days" isn't always what we want to practice today. The Gunsmiths Manual, first published in 1883 by
Stelle and Harrison have a section on breech plugs. They don't address this particular practice, but they do address some of the approaches to cutting breech threads that were sometimes used in their day (including breeches tapped with a “blacksmith’s tapered tap” and plugged with an accompanying tapered plug, as well as breeches made with a crooked thread), and they criticize them strongly (2013 edition. p 166- 169). I take from their statement that not all practices from the old days were considered wise or good craftsmanship even back in those good old days.

[FlinterNick]

Those old plugs look pretty rough.

What was done in the "good old days" isn't always what we want to practice today. The Gunsmiths Manual, first published in 1883 by
Stelle and Harrison have a section on breech plugs. They don't address this particular practice, but they do address some of the approaches to cutting breech threads that were sometimes used in their day (including breeches tapped with a “blacksmith’s tapered tap” and plugged with an accompanying tapered plug, as well as breeches made with a crooked thread), and they criticize them strongly (2013 edition. p 166- 169). I take from their statement that not all practices from the old days were considered wise or good craftsmanship even back in those good old days.

Of the 32 original plugs I have 2 are not notched, it was commonly done this way even.  There’s nothing unsafe about it. We tend to think we’re smarter today, they did what they had to do and it worked just fine.

[rfd]

Those old plugs look pretty rough.

What was done in the "good old days" isn't always what we want to practice today. The Gunsmiths Manual, first published in 1883 by
Stelle and Harrison have a section on breech plugs. They don't address this particular practice, but they do address some of the approaches to cutting breech threads that were sometimes used in their day (including breeches tapped with a “blacksmith’s tapered tap” and plugged with an accompanying tapered plug, as well as breeches made with a crooked thread), and they criticize them strongly (2013 edition. p 166- 169). I take from their statement that not all practices from the old days were considered wise or good craftsmanship even back in those good old days.

Of the 32 original plugs I have 2 are not notched, it was commonly done this way even.  There’s nothing unsafe about it. We tend to think we’re smarter today, they did what they had to do and it worked just fine.

I agree about not being smarter today about many things done in the past (lots of wise goodness that have been lost forever, too), but breech plugs that are Intentionally notched are just plain dumb. 

[Hudnut]

Could the intent have been to move the touch hole closer to the rear end of the barrel, thereby shifting the lock back too?

[whetrock]

Those old plugs look pretty rough.

What was done in the "good old days" isn't always what we want to practice today. The Gunsmiths Manual, first published in 1883 by
Stelle and Harrison have a section on breech plugs. They don't address this particular practice, but they do address some of the approaches to cutting breech threads that were sometimes used in their day (including breeches tapped with a “blacksmith’s tapered tap” and plugged with an accompanying tapered plug, as well as breeches made with a crooked thread), and they criticize them strongly (2013 edition. p 166- 169). I take from their statement that not all practices from the old days were considered wise or good craftsmanship even back in those good old days.

Of the 32 original plugs I have 2 are not notched, it was commonly done this way even.  There’s nothing unsafe about it. We tend to think we’re smarter today, they did what they had to do and it worked just fine.

Yes, it's the case that plugs were commonly notched. I'm not disagreeing with that, so thanks for the clarification there. I hadn't meant to imply that notching was uncommon. And I hadn't meant to imply that a contemporary firearm with a lightly notched plug is out of bounds, either.

Yeah, every generation tends to think it is smarter and wiser than the generation before. But there are a whole lot of things that we don't do anymore that they did in the 18th and early 19th century. So there is general agreement that some of the extremes are best avoided, even though we may see them in antique examples.

I'm just making a general statement. I'm not interested in debating about breech plugs.

[FlinterNick]

Those old plugs look pretty rough.

What was done in the "good old days" isn't always what we want to practice today. The Gunsmiths Manual, first published in 1883 by
Stelle and Harrison have a section on breech plugs. They don't address this particular practice, but they do address some of the approaches to cutting breech threads that were sometimes used in their day (including breeches tapped with a “blacksmith’s tapered tap” and plugged with an accompanying tapered plug, as well as breeches made with a crooked thread), and they criticize them strongly (2013 edition. p 166- 169). I take from their statement that not all practices from the old days were considered wise or good craftsmanship even back in those good old days.

Of the 32 original plugs I have 2 are not notched, it was commonly done this way even.  There’s nothing unsafe about it. We tend to think we’re smarter today, they did what they had to do and it worked just fine.

Yes, it's the case that plugs were commonly notched. I'm not disagreeing with that, so thanks for the clarification there. I hadn't meant to imply that notching was uncommon. And I hadn't meant to imply that a contemporary firearm with a lightly notched plug is out of bounds, either.

Yeah, every generation tends to think it is smarter and wiser than the generation before. But there are a whole lot of things that we don't do anymore that they did in the 18th and early 19th century. So there is general agreement that some of the extremes are best avoided, even though we may see them in antique examples.

I'm just making a general statement. I'm not interested in debating about breech plugs.

I have some research from the Sprginfield Armory on notching the plugs, I honestly believe they did it because of bits breaking, its documented here in the picture.

Pedersoli’s machined plug doesn’t need to be notched, however the fowling will accumulate against the face, that’s why i suggested conning the inside of the touch hole, this can be accomplished with a tiny burr.

The Navy Arms plugs were notched because they were longer same with Euroarms and early pedersoli’s.

You did exactly what i did to mine, i greased the threads for easy removal, there are many that debate the topic of breech plug removal was being unsafe, however I’m of the belief that its not unsafe at all.

I’m constructing a 1763 from custom parts, i had a barrel made from an example of 5 originals, will be posting a build along about it eventually in the future.

Have a great one !

Nick Genda

[rfd]

Coned touch hole liners make good sense and I'm an advocate of using White Lightning liners as Jim Kibler does,  but to cone a drilled bbl requires a special tool ...



Every trad ML bbl I get or work on for other folks gets its breech plug witnessed, removed, threads slathered with Nikal and rehomed.  Anything screwed into an ML BP bbl will have its threads mitigated with BP residue that will be difficult to remove unless steamed.

[rich pierce]

If concerned about the safety or whether notching a plug is smart or dumb, look at the quality and condition of the threads  on those 250 year old barrels. Superb. Simply superb despite great use and time.

One can ask why but it’s hard to argue with data.

If I were to guess this setup allows great strength due to the long threaded portion of the breech, and allows the lock to be placed where it needs to be.

[FlinterNick]

Coned touch hole liners make good sense and I'm an advocate of using White Lightning liners as Jim Kibler does,  but to cone a drilled bbl requires a special tool ...



Every trad ML bbl I get or work on for other folks gets its breech plug witnessed, removed, threads slathered with Nikal and rehomed.  Anything screwed into an ML BP bbl will have its threads mitigated with BP residue that will be difficult to remove unless steamed.

I use a custom burr that is threaded between the inside of the barrel and the drill. I’ve seen those tools before, great design but hard to come by and very expensive.

[FlinterNick]

If concerned about the safety or whether notching a plug is smart or dumb, look at the quality and condition of the threads  on those 250 year old barrels. Superb. Simply superb despite great use and time.

One can ask why but it’s hard to argue with data.

If I were to guess this setup allows great strength due to the long threaded portion of the breech, and allows the lock to be placed where it needs to be.

Thats an excellent point Rich the threads are beefy and done perfectly On my original 63 and 66 barrels the plugs are. Not nearly as long as a modern repro and have less threads but thicker and beefier coarse threads. Safety was surly not an issue for most of these.

One fact i always forget to add is they didn’t shoot the way we do today, however i don’t think that has much to do with the wear on the plugs.

[rich pierce]

Big bores typically generate a lot more LESS pressure than small bores regardless of loading. Look at pressures of modern shotguns versus modern rifles. Kinda like a hose without a nozzle. The pressure is so much less in a big bore.

[whetrock]

Thanks for posting the images from the book, Nick. That’s a very interesting letter.

You mentioned bits breaking. The part you underlined on the first page seems to be talking about vent picks/pickers. Is that how you read it? He mentions filing the notch. Are you assuming that he mentions filing as contrasted to allowing the drill to pass so deep as to cut the notch? (I had thought for a minute that by “side pin” he was referring to a lock bolt/lock nail, but I really think he is referring to the breech plug/breech pin.)

As you understand it, is he saying that the notch needs to be deeper, or is he saying he is concerned that it may be too deep (perhaps to the point of negatively affecting the seal, or perhaps he was concerned about the notch being so deep as to collect fouling)? I've read it a dozen times, and I can't confidently tell which he means, but I lean toward his wondering if this was a problem that he should ask "Mr. W" to correct.

In terms of a general observation that not all old practices were good practices, I think it’s interesting to see that the muskets he examined were, in his opinion, breeched too loosely, so he ordered that new, appropriately made taps be made. If I understand the letter correctly, the muskets he examined had already been intended for use, and yet the craftsmanship in the breeching was not up to what he considered an appropriate standard.