Rifle No. 66 in Kindig's 1960 book (Bethlehem School: John Moll)

[Dietle]

Here’s a link to some recent color photos showing details of the signed John Moll rifle that is pictured pages 180 and 183 of Kindig's 1960 book "Thoughts on the Kentucky Rifle in its Golden Age": https://korns.org/gunsmiths/John-Moll-Sr-10132025/John-Moll-Sr-rifle-10132025.html

[JTR]

WOW! Thanks!

[Eric Kettenburg]

Good photos - thanks for that.

That is most likely not John (Johannes) Moll Sr.  It is likely his son John II, who continued the business after the old man died, and eventually gave it over to his son John III.  Compare the work on this to the signed and dated Kindig swivel breech which is indisputably John II.

John II signed his rifles "John Moll" and it becomes an exercise in extreme examination and interpretation to try to segregate the "John Moll" signatures into potential Sr (Johannes) vs John II.  There are very slight differences in the "John Moll" signatures, but it has yet to be determined whether they are all one man - most likely John II - or if some of them are the elder Johannes.  I know I can't engrave my signature **exactly** the same every time and I have much better lighting than in 1790.  At least two restocks exist with a full "Iohannes Moll" chiseled and inlaid signature, and these are strongly believed (if not simply assumed) to be John Sr, but it remains unclear if he ever signed any as 'John.'

John III is easy, as he generally signed his as "John Moll jr."

[homerifle]

Thanks for the pictures, they are great!

I had wondered where/why Troutman had come up with the Liberty engraving. It makes sense now that his father was associated to the Allentown area. Thank again.

[Dietle]

Eric Kettenburg: Thanks for your comments. I changed the text a bit in response to your comments.

Homerifle: Regarding the inspiration for the Troutman inlay, I added two other people living near Benjamin Troutman who may have brought a Bethlehem school rifle to Somerset County: Benjamin Troutman's uncle William Troutman, Sr. and Michael Korn, Sr., whose daughter Christina married William Troutman, Jr.

[bluenoser]

Great article and pics.  Interesting nose cap that I have not noticed before.  Appears to fully wrap the forestock and be open ended.  Is this a bit of a rarity, or have I just not noticed it before now?

[rich pierce]

Great article and pics.  Interesting nose cap that I have not noticed before.  Appears to fully wrap the forestock and be open ended.  Is this a bit of a rarity, or have I just not noticed it before now?

I noticed that too and couldn’t see the joint.

[whetrock]

Great article and pics.  Interesting nose cap that I have not noticed before.  Appears to fully wrap the forestock and be open ended.  Is this a bit of a rarity, or have I just not noticed it before now?

My (very limited) understanding is that this was common to that area, but not elsewhere. But I think the main reason it seems so rare is just that we so rarely get to see the end of the muzzle. Collectors are usually the ones to pay for photos, and they don't always provide photos that are important to builders. (It took me a long time, years ago, to finally discover that any rifles had an open-face muzzle cap, much less one wrapped around like this one.)

My (still limited) understanding on the joint is that it was a lap joint, which in this case must have been very carefully tapered on both sides so as to overlap without adding thickness. I've seen a photo of one that was more casually done, and the joint was visible, and positioned in the bottom of the barrel channel.

It would be nice to hear from some on here who have made caps like this!

[Eric Kettenburg]

Very common on Northampton/Lehigh area rifles, somewhat of a 'standard.'  Usually lapped either under the barrel in the channel, or in the rammer channel.  Riveted through the lap joint.  Many are inlet only under the barrel and in the rammer channel so as not to add much in the way of thickness and some are inlet all the way around (PITA).

[bluenoser]

Many are inlet only under the barrel and in the rammer channel so as not to add much in the way of thickness and some are inlet all the way around (PITA).

Eric,
Could you provide a bit of an explanation of what you mean.  I likely misunderstand what you are saying.  Sounds as though you are saying, in some cases,  the nose cap sits proud of the wood everywhere but in the barrel and the rammer channels.

[whetrock]

[bluenoser]

Good catch!

[whetrock]

Good catch!

It was Eric's catch. I didn't see it until he told us what to look for.

[whetrock]

Many are inlet only under the barrel and in the rammer channel so as not to add much in the way of thickness and some are inlet all the way around (PITA).

So, on the ones that are only inlet under the barrel and in the rammer channel, the brass sticks up proud of the wood on the sides. Is that correct?
On the others the brass on the sides is flush with the wood of the forearm. Is that correct?

When you make these, is the brass formed around the wood and then riveted together on the wood?  Or is the whole thing shaped in place, then taken off and riveted (and soldered?) while off the gun and then slid back on, then riveted it to the wood?  (Are there other options I'm not imagining?)

[Buck]

Eric,

I believe I handled one of the 2 rifles you speak of in the “dungeon”. Our amigo claimed the rifles were both original. Both had been restored by a furniture maker there in Emmaus. He had the rifle that was original from the forestock back and the other was original from the lock forward with both being the only known signed rifles from Johannes 1. Did I get that story right?

Buck

[Eric Kettenburg]

Many are inlet only under the barrel and in the rammer channel so as not to add much in the way of thickness and some are inlet all the way around (PITA).

So, on the ones that are only inlet under the barrel and in the rammer channel, the brass sticks up proud of the wood on the sides. Is that correct?
On the others the brass on the sides is flush with the wood of the forearm. Is that correct?

When you make these, is the brass formed around the wood and then riveted together on the wood?  Or is the whole thing shaped in place, then taken off and riveted (and soldered?) while off the gun and then slid back on, then riveted it to the wood?  (Are there other options I'm not imagining?)

Some use a thicker brass, as this one appears to be, and are inlet all the way around.  I have seen others that use very very thin brass, probably no more than 1/32 and possibly slightly less, that are inlet under the barrel and in the rammer groove but are quite proud of the forestock on the sides, leading me to believe that they were wrapped around without inletting the sides.  The brass is thin enough that after finishing it's really not terribly noticeable.

[Eric Kettenburg]

Eric,

I believe I handled one of the 2 rifles you speak of in the “dungeon”. Our amigo claimed the rifles were both original. Both had been restored by a furniture maker there in Emmaus. He had the rifle that was original from the forestock back and the other was original from the lock forward with both being the only known signed rifles from Johannes 1. Did I get that story right?

Buck

Buck I'm not sure what he had that you examined.  The one he had signed 'John Moll' which was the big thick rifle, now owned by someone else here, was restored I believe mid-forestock foreward and our friend was *#)*^~ after a couple of years when the joint separated.  Also the silver on that one was replaced, cheek star and wrist piece.  He also had some stuff he claimed was Johannes but I never saw a signature.  The 'stump' was a case in point, although I never thought that was a Moll rifle anyway.

I've seen two modern restocks, probably 1940s-1960s, with barrels marked "Iohannes Moll" in large block chiseled letters and inlaid with something that looks like gold or some other amalgam metal.  Some of the furnishings were also recycled and they appear to have been the typical BP/guard etc that was used on our friend's rifle as well as one with a recycled silver liberty head.  The Moll liberty head was fairly distinctive.  So frankly, this complicates things further because the furnishings would seem to indicate that Johannes/John Sr was still working pretty much almost until he croaked in the early 1790s, or at least running the shop, and given the foundry capabilities he was known to have, it seems clear that his son John II essentially carried on with the same style and patterns for quite some time after his father died.

[Buck]

Eric,

That’s the one, big and bulky. I remember the joint at the stretch and the orange hue - not much more than that. He swore it was the old man’s work and not the kids. He had a couple of the rifles Kindig claimed were possible Molls, they were likely early Adam Angstadt rifles - currently  revwararms has one of them for sale.

Buck

[Eric Kettenburg]

Yeah, he and I discussed his Moll for years and years.  It's kind of the classic example of a Moll rifle which is basically impossible to say with certainty whether it's Johannes/John Sr, or his son.  If it's the old man, it's very late (in his life) as I really don't see it being earlier than the absolute end of the 1780s or early 1790s.  I think the size is deceiving and colors the interpretation especially in comparison with the dated 1793 H Rupp.  But on the other hand there's the Kindig John Rupp of even larger size!

Agree completely about the Angstadts.