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Author Topic: 58 caliber full stock flintlock plains rifle  (Read 1790 times)

Offline New Fowler

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58 caliber full stock flintlock plains rifle
« on: November 02, 2025, 02:30:17 AM »
I have just recently picked up my first left handed flintlock today, it has a 35 inch Bill Large straight octagon barrel that looks to be about 1:70 ROT, micro click adjustable target sights and an L&R lock. Any advice on general flintlock rifle reliability and loads for the 58. I've already got some 570 balls and 18 and 20 thousandths patches. Will upload some pictures tomorrow morning.

Offline New Fowler

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Re: 58 caliber full stock flintlock plains rifle
« Reply #1 on: November 02, 2025, 06:57:47 AM »
Pictures
















Offline alacran

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Re: 58 caliber full stock flintlock plains rifle
« Reply #2 on: November 02, 2025, 02:06:34 PM »
Nice looking rifle even with all the shrubbery. That L&R lock is very reliable. It is also quite fast. I would start with 60 grains to 80 grains of 2f to sight it in.
I seldom use water-based lubes in my hunting rifles. I like bear, mink or neat's foot oil for patch lube. Water based lubes work just not my choice.
I would you sight it in and do load development from a bench at 25 yards to start. If the rifle hits anywhere on the paper just shoot for groups until you get one before messing with the sights.
If you're going to post more picture, close ups of the sights the breech and the muzzle would be nice.
A man's rights rest in three boxes: the ballot box, the jury box, and the cartridge box.  Frederick Douglass

Offline New Fowler

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Re: 58 caliber full stock flintlock plains rifle
« Reply #3 on: November 02, 2025, 06:34:19 PM »
It is a standard straight tang rifle, and after pulling the liner it appears to be an internally coned white lighting touch hole liner














« Last Edit: November 02, 2025, 06:40:24 PM by New Fowler »

Offline Birddog6

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Re: 58 caliber full stock flintlock plains rifle
« Reply #4 on: November 21, 2025, 01:56:53 PM »
Appears to be a Ampco SS vent liner to me, it is not a Chambers vent liner.  I have used
those vent liners with good success, except I coned them a tad Inside before installation.
I like a .020-.025  straight wall thickness when looking thru it. And insure it does not protrude
in the bore as to snag a patch or restrict a jag or breech scraper. You can do the inside coning
with a #1 center drill.  It appears from the photo, the bore may need some serious attention.
Keith Lisle

Offline Daryl

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Re: 58 caliber full stock flintlock plains rifle
« Reply #5 on: November 21, 2025, 05:46:33 PM »
Bit of rust in the bore. The crown needs to be smoothed if you want to be able to load snug loads. Should be info on that here, with a search for "muzzle crowns".
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V

Offline New Fowler

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Re: 58 caliber full stock flintlock plains rifle
« Reply #6 on: November 23, 2025, 07:54:23 AM »
The rust has abated after the first outing shooting the gun, scrubbed it out with soap and water, then spent about an hour with oiled patches and red scotch brite scrubbing the bore, very nice bore but the rifling is somewhat shallow. Dary I have seen you mention crowning for tighter loads, did you use sand paper or a coning tool to achieve the crown you use? So far the 80 grain load of 2f, 570 ball and .018 patch put 5 shots into less than an inch at 50 yards. Would you be looking for more accuracy with a tighter ball/patch, or would you be looking for a heavier load with the same accuracy? Birddog the liner doesn't intrude into the barrel at all and ignition is as near as I can tell instantaneous, I am able to see powder through the touch hole while loading the gun.

Offline whetrock

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Re: 58 caliber full stock flintlock plains rifle
« Reply #7 on: November 23, 2025, 08:08:19 AM »
Looks and sounds like you got a nice fowler. Is the center key missing? Looks like it in the photos.


Offline New Fowler

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Re: 58 caliber full stock flintlock plains rifle
« Reply #8 on: November 23, 2025, 08:15:12 AM »
Looks and sounds like you got a nice fowler. Is the center key missing? Looks like it in the photos.
Yessir the center key fell out on my walk back to the truck after buying it at an event. I replaced it with a temporary one I had in a box, but I've got a properly fitting one coming from track of the wolf that should be here next week, as well as some Browning solution to match it to the rest.

Offline bluenoser

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Re: 58 caliber full stock flintlock plains rifle
« Reply #9 on: November 23, 2025, 04:17:24 PM »
Might consider slotting the keys, if not already slotted, and installing keepers.  Couple of ways to do that and not a difficult job.

Offline smylee grouch

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Re: 58 caliber full stock flintlock plains rifle
« Reply #10 on: November 23, 2025, 04:47:26 PM »
It should be a good shooter. My 58 Large barreled perc. was with 115 gr. 2f and 20 thousands washed denim and bear oil. 1-75 IIRC

Offline Daryl

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Re: 58 caliber full stock flintlock plains rifle
« Reply #11 on: November 23, 2025, 08:08:55 PM »
I use wet/dry 320 grit with WD40, pushed into the bore with the end of my thumb, then rotate (twist) the wrist, back and forth, turning the barrel every 15 seconds or so.
I put a patch down an I inch to collect "dirt"  then pull that out after I'm finished with the crown.
This leaves, for me, a perfectly polished, smooth crown without any coning. I personally do not believe in coming a bore. Each to his own.
Smoothing the crown to allow thicker patching will allow tighter loads, that do mot fail with heavier loads.
My Bill Large .58 barrel gave me the best accuracy at 100 yards with 140gr. GOEX. That was in the later 1970's. Groups ran an inch to 2" at 100yards, shot dirty, one group after another without ever a thought about wiping the bore. My combination then was a .022" denim patch and .575" pure lead ball and 140gr. 2F.
My other 2 .58's, a Numrich UH and a Zouave, both shot best with the same patch and ball, but with 120gr. of the 1970's GOEX, as well as 130gr. of the Meteor (Scotish) 2F. These rifle's muzzles were "finished" in the same manner. Those two rifles were capable of making 2" 100yard groups. None of these rifles would shoot tighter than about 6" at 100yards with 100gr. or less powder. Maybe it was the powder of the day, or a combination of factors. I was an accuracy nut in those days. Might have similar feelings today, even if I now lack the precision.
Crowning, with emery or wet/dry. For muzzles that are fresh-cut, I use one of the grinding stones that has a 1/4" shank for an electric drill to "cut" the initial 45degree angle, then use the thumb and wet/dry paper or emery cloth. The paper does just as good a job as the cloth. What the smoothed muzzle does, is allow with pressure or a smack with the starter knob, the cloth and patch to conform, fit into the muzzle without tearing or hurting the integrity of the patch. It also allows a thick enough patch to seal ALL the powder gasses behind the ball and deliver ALL the accuracy a particular load is capable of. To prove that the tighter the load, the more accurate, one need only observe what the bench-rest shooters are using. They go to what I would call the extreme of using oversized balls AND thick patches.  In my Goodoien .40 barrel (.38 bore dia) I tested this using a .400" ball and a .0235" thick mattress ticking patch. The accuracy was not much better or any at 50yards, yet was easy to load. I also tested .320" balls in a .32" bored rifle with .0215" patching. They also were easy loading. This simply shows that with this crown, the smaller calibres are easier loading as there is less lead to move. Loading .690" balls in my .69 rifle with .021" denim patches, is a chore. You have to really want that patch and ball to conform into the bore. They will, but it takes a good smack of the palm on the starter's knob.


These are "before and after pictures" of a muzzle belonging to one of our members here.




« Last Edit: November 23, 2025, 09:05:10 PM by Daryl »
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V

Offline MuskratMike

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Re: 58 caliber full stock flintlock plains rifle
« Reply #12 on: November 23, 2025, 09:02:00 PM »
Here is the only picture I have of the full stock Hawken I bought years, and years ago (you can tell by the picture I wore "A younger man's clothes). I bought it from the late Joe Williams in Springfield, Oregon. It was made by Mike Nesbitt (yep that one). I am not sure of the load but I believe it was 90 grains of GOEX 3F, a .530 ball and a .018 ticking patch. Back then I was greasing the patches with a B.P.C.R. lube DGL which my hunting partner (Jim Sproul) made at the time for the shooting trade.

"Muskrat" Mike McGuire
Keep your eyes on the skyline, your flint sharp and powder dry.

Offline Daryl

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Re: 58 caliber full stock flintlock plains rifle
« Reply #13 on: November 23, 2025, 09:13:22 PM »
My .58 Hawken, Bill Large Barrel - yes, long time = 48years ago.




« Last Edit: November 24, 2025, 10:53:38 PM by Daryl »
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V

Offline New Fowler

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Re: 58 caliber full stock flintlock plains rifle
« Reply #14 on: November 24, 2025, 03:02:04 AM »
Thank you for posting your process Daryl, I may have to try that. Good looking rifles both of you.

Offline New Fowler

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Re: 58 caliber full stock flintlock plains rifle
« Reply #15 on: November 24, 2025, 06:54:03 AM »
Well, wound up crowning two guns using your method Daryl, took me roughly 10 minutes per gun. Started both at 320 grit, 15 seconds then turn, did that for 1 minute per gun per grit, with some looking and deliberating between sanding jobs. Went down to 1000 grit with both guns to remove any potential lines or grooves. The .018 and .575 load seated easily in the 58, and my smoothbore took the patch/ball combo I've been using much easier, as well as the shot cartridges I've been experimenting with.

Offline Daryl

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Re: 58 caliber full stock flintlock plains rifle
« Reply #16 on: November 24, 2025, 10:54:37 PM »
Good work!! Glad to help. I've been doing this to my own barrels since 1974, or so.
Had a lad bring a TC .50 to me at the range, about 1974. I took my pocket knife out and cut a 45 degree angle to his factory muzzle, then a piece of emery from my
bag and re-crowned his rifle. Gave him some .495" balls & .022" denim and he was then making good groups. His rifle liked the same as mine, at the time. 85gr. GOEX powder.
We were shooting 50yards as I felt closer than that was for beginners(I'd been shooting ML's for 2 years). Amazed me at the time that NMLRA had 25yard matches.
I "get it" now.
« Last Edit: November 24, 2025, 11:00:43 PM by Daryl »
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V

Offline Birddog6

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Re: 58 caliber full stock flintlock plains rifle
« Reply #17 on: November 25, 2025, 03:34:21 PM »
I have done it that way many times, until I found a tapered grinding stone
with a 1/4" shaft on it that I liked.
Now I put the emery paper on the barrel, push the stone into it & turn it
slow with a batt. operated drill. Go thru the same procedure & last time is
with my thumb & the 1000 grit paper.   Your mileage may vary.
Keith Lisle

Offline Steeltrap

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Re: 58 caliber full stock flintlock plains rifle
« Reply #18 on: November 25, 2025, 09:49:53 PM »
For retention of wedge keys, if your keys don't have the slot, just drill a series of holes, then file the slot from there.

Second pic shows the pin set just below the barrel channel. Leave a little chamfer at the hole top in case you ever need to pull the pin.

Events such as.....on the first barrel install the slot was just a tad off. When I placed the barrel into the BC, the wedge key just snapped into the barrel slot a tiny bit. Now....that's a lot of fun attempting to remove the barrel without damaging or cracking the wood.




Offline Jeff Murray

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Re: 58 caliber full stock flintlock plains rifle
« Reply #19 on: November 26, 2025, 05:14:18 AM »
A 570 ball and 90 grains of 2FF gives me good accuracy in my 58.  I use 130 grains of 2FF when hunting really big things with equal accuracy and better ballistics.

Offline BandeauRouge

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Re: 58 caliber full stock flintlock plains rifle
« Reply #20 on: December 09, 2025, 08:06:43 AM »
Im curious, how common is that style of rear sight? I haven't seen the bestest photos of modern rear sights on side locks.

Offline New Fowler

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Re: 58 caliber full stock flintlock plains rifle
« Reply #21 on: December 09, 2025, 09:31:51 PM »
It's very similar to how the TC Hawken adjustable rear sights work

Offline New Fowler

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Re: 58 caliber full stock flintlock plains rifle
« Reply #22 on: December 10, 2025, 10:58:06 PM »
Historically its complete bunk. Fixed sights were the norm in Civilian guns for a long lime