Why Not Removable Breech Plugs?

[Woodpecker]

I've recently acquired a Beretta over/under muzzleloader and was surprised to read the manual stating to remove and clean the breech plugs after every use. I've been out twice to put 2 rounds of clays through it (50 each) and afterward removed the plugs for cleaning, applied a dab of anti-seize, and reinstalled. They snug up and index easily and cleaning the barrels is a breeze.

This led me to reading a lot about breech plugs, both hand cut 18th century and modern removable plugs. Question is, since modern materials and CNC machining of parts for historical reproductions is acceptable, and modern threading equipment is so precise, why wouldn't a builder design the breech plugs to be removed easily for cleaning?

[rfd]

Trad ML breech plugs are easy to remove as long as they've been properly anti-seize greased.  Been doing so for decades.  Easy peasy and no special tooling required.

Whats NOT easy is trying to remove a breech plug off a well shot BP gun that never had its plug greased.

BUT, removing a breech plug is NOT something to be done on a regular basis for "cleaning".  What needs to be done to any trad ML is Proper Maintenance.

[smart dog]

Hi,
There simply is no need to remove the plug for cleaning.  That would be just an extra complication even if the plug has a powder chamber. 

dave

[Eric Krewson]

I ran into a guy at historic get together who said he removed the breechplug from his TC Hawken every time he cleaned it, he said he could unscrew it, screw it back in and index it with finger pressure alone. He had been doing this since he bought the gun in the late 70s. I told him he had wallowed out the threads with his cleaning regimen but my caution fell on deaf ears, some people are like that.

One thing to remember is folks like us who actually know how to properly dissemble just about any kind of M/L are a rarity in the black powder world. There are tons of people out there that shouldn't be allowed to own a screwdriver, that is why many breechplugs are purposely made to be difficult to remove.

[rfd]

I ran into a guy at historic get together who said he removed the breechplug from his TC Hawken every time he cleaned it, he said he could unscrew it, screw it back in and index it with finger pressure alone. He had been doing this since he bought the gun in the late 70s. I told him he had wallowed out the threads with his cleaning regimen but my caution fell on deaf ears, some people are like that.

One thing to remember is folks like us who actually know how to properly dissemble just about any kind of M/L are a rarity in the black powder world. There are tons of people out there that shouldn't be allowed to own a screwdriver, that is why many breechplugs are purposely made to be difficult to remove.

We need a "like" button for posts like this!

[A.Merrill]

👍👍 Al

[rfd]

In any "niche" pleasure endeavor there are folks who really know what they're talking about, who speak the truth borne from decades of learning via the "seat of their pants flying".  Then there are those who are talking about a walk they haven't really or fully traveled and are regurgitating advice from keyboard cowboys who are literally making stuff up, and then there are those who are simply making stuff up.  We all need to chose wisely during our constant life of learning.

[smylee grouch]

Well Said !

[Steeltrap]

I see no need to pull a breech plug once it's properly installed. On that note, I just pulled one as I'm going to use a standing breech on this build.

There are others who state they never remove the FH Liner when cleaning. But I always do that, clean the threads, clean the cone shape inside, and snug it back up. I've never had an issue doing this with the FHL.

[Daryl]

BP removal for cleaning. Guys here say that removing the barrel is not necessary, although we do it.
I'd only remove the BP to check condition of the bore on a new/used or antique rifle or smoothbore.

[Birddog6]

In any "niche" pleasure endeavor there are folks who really know what they're talking about, who speak the truth borne from decades of learning via the "seat of their pants flying".  Then there are those who are talking about a walk they haven't really or fully traveled and are regurgitating advice from keyboard cowboys who are literally making stuff up, and then there are those who are simply making stuff up.  We all need to chose wisely during our constant life of learning.

Wish I had said that.........     I sure have thought it Many times. 

[Hungry Horse]

 Let’s start this off with evaluating the shotgun you are working with. That gun has problems right from the beginning. A friend and I acquired three of them over the years and none of them were reliable out of the box. Trouble with the bottom barrel was most prevalent, but other issues haunted them as well. You would think a high end company would not market such a beautiful gun that doesn’t preform well. I would never remove the breech plugs unless it was a last resort.

Hungry Horse

[Ky-Flinter]

I've recently acquired a Beretta over/under muzzleloader and was surprised to read the manual stating to remove and clean the breech plugs after every use. I've been out twice to put 2 rounds of clays through it (50 each) and afterward removed the plugs for cleaning, applied a dab of anti-seize, and reinstalled. They snug up and index easily and cleaning the barrels is a breeze.

This led me to reading a lot about breech plugs, both hand cut 18th century and modern removable plugs. Question is, since modern materials and CNC machining of parts for historical reproductions is acceptable, and modern threading equipment is so precise, why wouldn't a builder design the breech plugs to be removed easily for cleaning?

Since there are times when we legitimately need to remove and reinstall a breech plug, please allow me to rephrase the question. 

Since modern materials and CNC machining of parts for historical reproductions is acceptable, and modern threading equipment is so precise, why would a manufacturer fit breech plugs to barrels that require a 250 lb. man with a 4' breaker bar to loosen it, and also requires that same force to reinstall the plug to the witness marks?

I am not talking about cleaning the gun.  I don't remove the breech plug to clean my guns. 

Ron

[Daryl]

THIS is the first time since I started shooting BP guns in 1965 (game warden's kid had a cap-lock 16 bore single shot) & my own in 1972 that I have heard of removing breech plugs for cleaning. So, that is the first time in either 60 or 53 years, which ever you decide.

[rfd]

I've recently acquired a Beretta over/under muzzleloader and was surprised to read the manual stating to remove and clean the breech plugs after every use. I've been out twice to put 2 rounds of clays through it (50 each) and afterward removed the plugs for cleaning, applied a dab of anti-seize, and reinstalled. They snug up and index easily and cleaning the barrels is a breeze.

This led me to reading a lot about breech plugs, both hand cut 18th century and modern removable plugs. Question is, since modern materials and CNC machining of parts for historical reproductions is acceptable, and modern threading equipment is so precise, why wouldn't a builder design the breech plugs to be removed easily for cleaning?

Since there are times when we legitimately need to remove and reinstall a breech plug, please allow me to rephrase the question. 

Since modern materials and CNC machining of parts for historical reproductions is acceptable, and modern threading equipment is so precise, why would a manufacturer fit breech plugs to barrels that require a 250 lb. man with a 4' breaker bar to loosen it, and also requires that same force to reinstall the plug to the witness marks?

I am not talking about cleaning the gun.  I don't remove the breech plug to clean my guns. 

Ron

If new or well cleaned BP threads, along with the bbl threads, are all in good condition and well cleaned, and if homed with a quality anti-seize grease, removal of said plug can be extremely easy to remove and replace to a witness mark without the need for a special bbl vise (i.e. - Rice) or special BP wrench (i.e. - Rice).  Same is true for a touch hole liner or anything else screwed into a bbl that enters the bore.

[Woodpecker]

Thank you all for the responses; to Ky-Flinter for the rephrasing, and rfd for his response.

I wasn't trying to challenge the reasoning or validity behind a centuries old breech plug installation technique or the traditional cleaning regimen. I also understand this is the American Longrifles forum and not a forum to discuss modern muzzleloaders, but a certain manufacturer is making a sidelock with indexed removable breech plug with a drum. It's a modern take and potential improvement on a traditional method just like CNC machining, modern steel barrels, or jug choking 18th century reproduction smoothbore barrels.

[rfd]

Thank you all for the responses; to Ky-Flinter for the rephrasing, and rfd for his response.

I wasn't trying to challenge the reasoning or validity behind a centuries old breech plug installation technique or the traditional cleaning regimen. I also understand this is the American Longrifles forum and not a forum to discuss modern muzzleloaders, but a certain manufacturer is making a sidelock with indexed removable breech plug with a drum. It's a modern take and potential improvement on a traditional method just like CNC machining, modern steel barrels, or jug choking 18th century reproduction smoothbore barrels.

I absolutely hear you, but please do consider most folks who want a traditional side lock muzzleloader expect its build components to be that of the period whence it was designed, which means a breech plug screwed into a bbl chamber in and of a specific design and build.

[FlinterNick]

You really don’t need to remove the breech plug to clean the barrel.

I actually believe the barrel can be cleaned much better with the plug in it as it vacuums the water pressure in the barrel when jagging.

An issue with cleaning a barrel with out the plug is the residue from the soap, water and fouling can actually get caught in the breech threads causing other problems, I’ve seen this on a northstar west officdrs’ fusil. The plug had been removed way too much, so much that it turned past the witness marks.

The only time i remove plugs is for barrel is for gun building, blueing, browning or special repairs such as lapping, touch hole corrections or breech plug replacement or removing something stuck. This is not often.

[rfd]

You really don’t need to remove the breech plug to clean the barrel.

I actually believe the barrel can be cleaned much better with the plug in it as it vacuums the water pressure in the barrel when jagging.

An issue with cleaning a barrel with out the plug is the residue from the soap, water and fouling can actually get caught in the breech threads causing other problems, I’ve seen this on a northstar west officdrs’ fusil. The plug had been removed way too much, so much that it turned past the witness marks.

The only time i remove plugs is for barrel is for gun building, blueing, browning or special repairs such as lapping, touch hole corrections or breech plug replacement or removing something stuck. This is not often.

Spot on, Sir!

[L T Grey]

Well said Eric!

[recurve]

the only time it's needed to remove a breach plug is a dry ball that will not pull/compressed air unload or a vent liner that was installed too long and needs to be trimmed from the inside the barrel.

[Hungry Horse]

 Breech plugs by nature take a torque load each time they are removed, and re-installed, in the barrel. Each time this happens the clearance between plug, and barrel, increases minutely. If you remove the plug each time you clean the gun leakage will occur pretty quickly. This leakage so close to the ignition of the powder charge will act just like a cutting torch on your breach threads. The same thing can happen to a drum and nipple percussion ignition in some cases.

Hungry Horse

[Daryl]

When I clean black powder fouling in my removable barrel SxS 12 bore, I stick the muzzles into a bucket of water, just to get the vacuum effect which helps the cleaning process.
There is even more of a powerful force, when the water is being drawn in through the vent or the nipple seat, thus cleaning those areas more precisely than if the barrel(s) was/were merely patched out.

[Dphariss]

I've recently acquired a Beretta over/under muzzleloader and was surprised to read the manual stating to remove and clean the breech plugs after every use. I've been out twice to put 2 rounds of clays through it (50 each) and afterward removed the plugs for cleaning, applied a dab of anti-seize, and reinstalled. They snug up and index easily and cleaning the barrels is a breeze.

This led me to reading a lot about breech plugs, both hand cut 18th century and modern removable plugs. Question is, since modern materials and CNC machining of parts for historical reproductions is acceptable, and modern threading equipment is so precise, why wouldn't a builder design the breech plugs to be removed easily for cleaning?

Probably have a fouling trap in the breech.

[Dphariss]

Like Daryl I started shooting MLs quite some time back about 1966, and never heard of pulling a BP to clean. I see it as counter productive. But as previously stated it may well have a fouling trap due to a poorly fitted breech(s).