Lock plate repair?

[Toddsndrsn]

I drilled the lock bolt on a bad angle and it doesn't sit well against the side plate leaving a little more than 1/64" gap between the head of the bolt and the top of the side plate.  My plan right now for the repair is peening and lock bolt and silver brazing it through the pan and the lock plate or doing each individually then redrilling.  There's not a lot of metal left on the lock plate to make a counter sink.

The other options I had come up with is to try to adjust the angle of the side plate or inlet it to account for the lock bolt, or put a slight bend in the lock bolt.

Thoughts?

[JTR]

Unless you are really comfortable with doing these sort of things, a new lock plate is the easiest, most efficient, and cheapest way to fix the issue.
John

[smart dog]

Hi,
I've repaired more than my share of holes gone astray.  I would deal with your situation by threading the hole.  Slightly countersink both sides of the hole.  Screw a threaded rod made from low carbon steel into the hole and cut it off leaving a little excess on both sides then peen the excess down into the countersinks.  You can sweat flux and silver solder into the threads before peening.  I typically peen over a fair amount of metal creating a dome.  I then melt that dome with my welding torch to fuse it to the lock plate then file flush.  By doing that I can still case harden the plate without worrying about any solder joints.  However, by threading the hole even if your solder melts during case hardening, the plug won't move and the solder will congeal again when the plate is cooled.  Just be careful that any high temp silver brazing or welding does not harden the steel.  I usually anneal the plate before I try drilling a new hole.

dave   

[whetrock]

Toddsndrsn,
Jim Kibler has posted a video about this.




Jim's technique doesn't involve welding, but then again, in the repair he is making the whole is not so close to the edge as is yours there.

On a side note, the normal way to avoid this is to determine your optimum position for the bolt to pass in the lock bolster, drill that hole first, and then with the lock in the mortise use that hole to guide the drill. The hole in the wood is then enlarged later.

To be sure the hole goes straight through where you need it to go, it's helpful to also figure out exactly where you want it to come out on the side plate side, then drill so that the two points align. If you have a drill press, this can be done with a simple alignment pin jig in a shallow starter hole on the bottom side. If you are doing it with a hand drill, then it can be done by drilling with a slightly undersized bit, drilling just past 1/2 way from each side, then connect the two holes by drilling through to get them aligned. Then enlarge.

Of course you are going to need to put a dowel in the stock to repair the hole that was misaligned. Wood glue is fine.

 

[Steeltrap]

I've repaired a stripped hole using silver solder and Jim's method. Worked great.

[WalnutRed]

You can also file the underside of the bolt head at a slight angle.

[whetrock]

If a bolt head doesn't sit evenly in a side plate, I think the most common way of dealing with it is to slightly countersink the hole with a flat countersink. This can easily be done with an old flat spade type drill bit in a brace and bit. Dull the cutting edge on the point a little so that it works more like a pilot, and also cut off the spurs flush. Set up that way it will cut a flat bottom countersink just fine. You can do it with a drill press, as well, but I think it's a lot safer with the brace. Either way, clamp the side plate down securely so that it can't move. That's really important.

[FlinterNick]

Send it to me and I can TIG weld it and you can start over. TIG welding generally does not require annealing after welding. However I always recommend using a carbide drill bit.

Did some welding on this pistol lock plate, for  fitting a replacement feather spring.

After welding it cleaned up nicely with a machinist die sinker file. I’m not concerned about the welding scars because the frizzen will be fit over the area the inside of plate remains level after welding.

For a lock bolt on the the outside I use a mild filler rod to cover up the welding scars.

Nick Genda

[Daryl]

I think what might help, is to have a picture of the plate without welding 'scars/marks/tattoos' on the outside.

[FlinterNick]

I think what might help, is to have a picture of the plate without welding 'scars/marks/tattoos' on the outside.

the scars are covered by the new frizzen spring and drilling, it’s not a concern. they can also be filed or slip stoned out.

[Birddog6]

I drilled the lock bolt on a bad angle and it doesn't sit well against the side plate leaving a little more than 1/64" gap between the head of the bolt and the top of the side plate.  My plan right now for the repair is peening and lock bolt and silver brazing it through the pan and the lock plate or doing each individually then redrilling.  There's not a lot of metal left on the lock plate to make a counter sink.

The other options I had come up with is to try to adjust the angle of the side plate or inlet it to account for the lock bolt, or put a slight bend in the lock bolt.

Thoughts?

Were it me ? I would use a wire welder & weld it up & drill & tap again. 

But the bolt head to side plate I see is insignificant.   The bolster to the barrel fit IS Significant. 
I am a lil picky on that FIT & I want mine to where I cannot slide a .001 feeler gauge into the fit.

So, I will say of a .001 or a .0015 feeler gauge will not go into that fit from bolster to barrel, the
FIT is good & leave it alone.  Then you see where the bolt head rubs the lock plate & you relieve
that area until the lock bolt head sits OK.  DO NOT bend the bolt & think this will fix it.

In the future if you use a Drill Point in hand or drill press, and have Pilot holes, you will have
straight holes & then you tap THRU THE STOCK with everything in place. So it Has to go thru the
plate straight. 

It is a minor flub. It is OK, a easy fix.  Just pick one of the options & go on. 

[Gaeckle]

You can also file the underside of the bolt head at a slight angle.

Agreed...just need a file, no other special tooling, welders or any other device. Easiest fix.

[mountainman70]

That looks like a small Siler. If so, I have a bare plate you can have.
It is Not drilled for lockscrews
Just let me know
Good luck
Best regards
Dave

[FlinterNick]

I drilled the lock bolt on a bad angle and it doesn't sit well against the side plate leaving a little more than 1/64" gap between the head of the bolt and the top of the side plate.  My plan right now for the repair is peening and lock bolt and silver brazing it through the pan and the lock plate or doing each individually then redrilling.  There's not a lot of metal left on the lock plate to make a counter sink.

The other options I had come up with is to try to adjust the angle of the side plate or inlet it to account for the lock bolt, or put a slight bend in the lock bolt.

Thoughts?

Were it me ? I would use a wire welder & weld it up & drill & tap again. 

But the bolt head to side plate I see is insignificant.   The bolster to the barrel fit IS Significant. 
I am a lil picky on that FIT & I want mine to where I cannot slide a .001 feeler gauge into the fit.

So, I will say of a .001 or a .0015 feeler gauge will not go into that fit from bolster to barrel, the
FIT is good & leave it alone.  Then you see where the bolt head rubs the lock plate & you relieve
that area until the lock bolt head sits OK.  DO NOT bend the bolt & think this will fix it.

In the future if you use a Drill Point in hand or drill press, and have Pilot holes, you will have
straight holes & then you tap THRU THE STOCK with everything in place. So it Has to go thru the
plate straight. 

It is a minor flub. It is OK, a easy fix.  Just pick one of the options & go on.

Welding up is the best option, soldering or brazing will eventually wear out and chamfering the bolt head will not fix the real issue which is a crooked bolt. Crooked bolts can also create imbalanced tensions along the stock which can eventually lead to other issues.

[JTR]

I’m not concerned about the welding scars because the frizzen will be fit over the area the inside of plate remains level after welding.
Nick Genda

Really? That's it?

[whetrock]

I’m not concerned about the welding scars because the frizzen will be fit over the area the inside of plate remains level after welding.
Nick Genda

Really? That's it?

I'm not a skilled welder, so this is a legit question. (Rough work with an arc welder is it for me thus far.) So, how hard is it to fill welding scars like these and then file everything down to clean, smooth metal? It seems like that would be better than having visible scars.

I'm not implying that you need to do this, Nick. I'm honestly asking about the complexity of the task.

[Toddsndrsn]

Lots of good stuff from everyone!

JTR - I purchased a new lock plate and pan/bolster from Muzzleloader Builder Supply.  After messing around for a while, decided that I don't have the skills to drill straight holes or the appropriate drill press to accomplish this.  I think my drill press was the root of the problem after checking table to drill bit.  One side of the bit is square, not so square on the other side.

Smart Dog - I don't have a welder or a torch, so I don't know that that is going to work for me unless MAPP will get the job done.

Whetrock - As with all things pre-carved...nothing is ever right unless it's a Kibler.  The lock bolt locations were predrilled and shaped like an oval.  An appropriate sized bit would have not faired well, not to mention they sloped up at the same angle I drilled with the drill press.  I came across that video in my hours of searching.  The amount of remaining metal has me nervous for getting an adequate countersink on that outside of the lock which is why I sought the advice of wiser craftsmen.  None the less, brazing is something I think I can handle.

FlintnerNick - Speaking from experience on the silver brazing joint failures?

Birddog - Fit between the bolster and barrel is fantastic.  No concerns and is my first objective when inletting locks, not to say that I don't have things to learn when it comes to improving my inletting skills.  They aren't the prettiest.

mountainman70 - Have lock plate and pan just incase I need to go down this route.  Even bought a replacement lock, but it doesn't fit the same in the depth of the inlet so hopefully that will go to my first scratch build one day.  I may have to make a new side plate any way so this isn't out of the question.

WalnutRed - Lock bolts are cheap so this is coming close to the top of the list along with Birddog's idea.


I feel like I should be able to make a decision here in the next 3-6 months.  Only took 2 months to ask the question.

[Eric Krewson]

Been there done that, slight countersink, solder paste in a bolt, peen the bolt down slightly on both ends, file smooth, done.

[smart dog]

Hi,
You need to read my post more carefully.  I wrote that I would weld the ends of the hole but suggested that soldering alone would work especially if you thread the hole and insert a threaded rod. Moreover, if you counter sink both sides of the hole and peen excess metal into the them after soldering, the fix will basically disappear.  Here the holes are peened and then welded over.



Here is the plate after the excess is filed flush.



Finally, I often convert locks from one set of internals to others and fill almost all the holes without leaving any welding or soldering scars.  The one pictured above is an L&R "Queen Anne" lock for which I replaced all the internals with Siler parts.  That kind of work is routine in my shop and easily done.

dave

[Dphariss]

I have a Hobart 135 wire welder that works amazingly well, just make sure you have fresh gas to the head before welding. Have done quite a few gun parts with it over the years. But for some things you need a TIG. Like welding original percussion era or 1874 Sharps receiver parts. I am sure it will apply to any low grade iron. By the 1870s the steel got better. But the side hammer Sharps were all iron and not a good grade.

[FlinterNick]

I’m not concerned about the welding scars because the frizzen will be fit over the area the inside of plate remains level after welding.
Nick Genda

Really? That's it?

I'm not a skilled welder, so this is a legit question. (Rough work with an arc welder is it for me thus far.) So, how hard is it to fill welding scars like these and then file everything down to clean, smooth metal? It seems like that would be better than having visible scars.

I'm not implying that you need to do this, Nick. I'm honestly asking about the complexity of the task.

cleaning up welding scars is not hard at all. They have really good fillers that just touched the surface and you just need a real light weld. I generally don’t get heartburn when it’s in concealed areas. If it’s in an area that’s kind of visible then I take an extra step to remove that scar. It’s a little bit more time-consuming though just because you have to work on lower heat and tank pressure.

[FlinterNick]

Lots of good stuff from everyone!

JTR - I purchased a new lock plate and pan/bolster from Muzzleloader Builder Supply.  After messing around for a while, decided that I don't have the skills to drill straight holes or the appropriate drill press to accomplish this.  I think my drill press was the root of the problem after checking table to drill bit.  One side of the bit is square, not so square on the other side.

Smart Dog - I don't have a welder or a torch, so I don't know that that is going to work for me unless MAPP will get the job done.

Whetrock - As with all things pre-carved...nothing is ever right unless it's a Kibler.  The lock bolt locations were predrilled and shaped like an oval.  An appropriate sized bit would have not faired well, not to mention they sloped up at the same angle I drilled with the drill press.  I came across that video in my hours of searching.  The amount of remaining metal has me nervous for getting an adequate countersink on that outside of the lock which is why I sought the advice of wiser craftsmen.  None the less, brazing is something I think I can handle.

FlintnerNick - Speaking from experience on the silver brazing joint failures?

Birddog - Fit between the bolster and barrel is fantastic.  No concerns and is my first objective when inletting locks, not to say that I don't have things to learn when it comes to improving my inletting skills.  They aren't the prettiest.

mountainman70 - Have lock plate and pan just incase I need to go down this route.  Even bought a replacement lock, but it doesn't fit the same in the depth of the inlet so hopefully that will go to my first scratch build one day.  I may have to make a new side plate any way so this isn't out of the question.

WalnutRed - Lock bolts are cheap so this is coming close to the top of the list along with Birddog's idea.


I feel like I should be able to make a decision here in the next 3-6 months.  Only took 2 months to ask the question.

Sliver Soldering or Brazing in a bushing on a lock plate certainly can work just fine, it really depends on the quality of the solder and brass rod being used.  Brazing of course will leave you with a brass scar coloring issue, silver soldering can also lead to discoloring. Dave’s (smartdog’s) methods on using silver solder work just fine as does Jim Kiblers method. 

Where silver soldering can fail sometimes is where a screw needs to be rooted or shouldered or if its a high stress area, like a mainspring screw or sear spring screw, if there’s any movement in the screw or if it’s slightly crooked, it can mangle up the thread joints. But if your product is good, high tensile sliver solder should do the trick. A lof of silver solder out there is very cheap and not adequate.

I most often am fixing frizzen’s that dont provide enough coverage on the flash pan, its is usually an issue when the frizzen isnt’ secured well enough on the pan with a small shim on the upper edge to counter the thread pitch metrics. The end result is the back kicks up slightly by a few thousandths and you have a gap. I see this a lot on custom locks and factor locks too.

I prefer to weld because it’s less time consuming for me and more efficient, but i use a TIG welder most of the time.

Where welding can get tricky is welding over things like old markings and engravings, such as on a Pedersoli brown Bess lock, you need a lot of heat in a small area and need to focus on one area at a time or the plate can warp and become very brittle. Not something i do anymore. And lastl there’s the issue with the carbon footprint shadow of the old markings. Laser cutting leaves a carbon footprint that you can’t always weld away.

[FlinterNick]

I have a Hobart 135 wire welder that works amazingly well, just make sure you have fresh gas to the head before welding. Have done quite a few gun parts with it over the years. But for some things you need a TIG. Like welding original percussion era or 1874 Sharps receiver parts. I am sure it will apply to any low grade iron. By the 1870s the steel got better. But the side hammer Sharps were all iron and not a good grade.

Hobart 135 is good MIG wire, works well with a low amp TIG set up too.