Thick forestock

[PEARL DRUMS]

I’m new to this entire game. I do know that this forestock looks too big (tall). I can’t go any thinner on the belly side or I risk seeing a ram rod hole I don’t want to see. What amount of the barrel and thimbles exposed is acceptable? It’s a .62 Hoyt barrel. So I can only get so thin. That barrel is big.

Thanks for any advice

Chris

[Steeltrap]

You need to remove some additional wood from the top of the barrel channel. You're not "showing" enough of the barrel side flats. You should be seeing 50% of those side flats.

In addition, your RR channel is just a tad too "thick". Again, you should be seeing more of the RR on the side view than what you see now.  Be careful in removing the wood as now you're "messing" with the RR pipes and you don't want to expose any gaps by removing too much wood.

The thickest part of your forend wood (looking down from the top of the rifle) should be 1/8". That's measured from the side barrel flat to the farthest part of the "curve" on the side.

When you shape the forend, first cut the wood down to 1/8" from the barrel flat, then curve the wood into the barrel and the bottom from there.

If you are concerned about the location of the bottom of the RR hole, you can simply drill a small hole in the bottom of the barrel channel, then measure from the bottom of the BC to the bottom of the RR hole. Then transfer this measurement to the outside of the stock.

[whetrock]

You need to remove some additional wood from the top of the barrel channel. You're not "showing" enough of the barrel side flats. You should be seeing 50% of those side flats.

As Steeltrap said, 50% of the side flats is a general rule of thumb, but if you are trying to copy a particular rifle, then pay careful attention to the antique. Some are less than 50% coverage. Some are more. Some are less at the breach and then taper gently down to about 50% coverage at the muzzle. There's no mechanical "rule" that says it has to be 50%. If you are trying to copy a particular antique, little details like that can make a huge difference in how your rifle looks in comparison to that antique. Some of these details are also part of the features of various schools, as well.

[Robert Roller]

Take it to the range now and see if accuracy is satisfactory and then finish it.Fine detailing comes with experience and experience is a by product of doing.The last gun I "made"was a precarved English half stock for a long range gun and it was from Don Brown who is long deceased.The first muzzle loader I made was in high school wood work shop.It was a full stock a maybe walnut.The passage of 72 years is no help with remembering any real details.I am a lock and trigger maker or was and have no real facility for wood work in my shop.
Bob Roller

[Daryl]

Here's an original rifle form the 1850 period.



Here's a rifle my bro made for our late friend Leatherbelly, back in around 2010 or so, now mine.

[PEARL DRUMS]

Duly noted, guys. I will see what I have left on the belly and also take more off the top. I know it’s closer to 1/2 the barrel exposed now than it appears in the pictures. I’m not trying to copy a specific rifle. Just a Germanic flavored rifle. I’m not opposed to exposing a bit more barrel and thimble. I know it can’t stay like it is. Thank you very much for the replies.

[whetrock]

I think most of the weight you are seeing is probably because you haven't yet trimmed down the "rails" to either side of the rod groove. How much of the ramrod should show? The number 50% gets thrown out there, but it actually varies. Having more than 50% of the rod showing is common. On the half stock Daryl just showed, you can see that only about 25% of the ramrod is covered.

So have a look at some of the Jaeger you can find online. And if you can stand to wait a little bit, some of the Jaeger experts on here may speak up as well. Just have to be patient.

It looks like it's gonna be a very comfortable gun to shoot.

[PEARL DRUMS]

The Jaeger look is what I was after. But I’m nowhere near carving or engraving anything. So I hesitate to label this one. I looked at hundreds of rifles before I drew this one up. Like you said, not much in the way of consistency of certain aspects. Lots of variations. It does shoulder like a dream. My cheek piece feels very nice and the wrist feels great in my giant hands. When I look down the barrel I see nothing. Flat as a pancake. I’m surprised what a 1/4” of cast off does.

[Jakob]

This gives a good idea of how and how much wood to remove.
Bill Raby's videos will also show it.

I sympathize with you. Understanding the geometry from pictures only is really hard.

This video will give you a good idea of the geometry of your typical Jaeger and I must have watched it a thousand times when I was building mine.

[PEARL DRUMS]

Thanks Jakob. I will watch them. Clay Smith videos have been my teacher throughout this process. I love the way he explains things.

[Birddog6]

Amazes me all the stuff avail to help you build today. When I started, I had the library,
their copy machine, me, & me.  The the Me feller was not allot of help. 

[PEARL DRUMS]

I started building self bows before I had access to the web. Similar story to yours. That being said, self bows are a 100x more simple than a rifle. Only took me 30-40 tries before I nailed it 

[Daryl]

Interesting. With The Bowyer's Bible #1, i shot my first bow for 2 years, stump shooting, then used it for a couple cable experiments, then finally overdrew it until it broke as an experiment about 34", way past 90 degrees bend.

[PEARL DRUMS]

I suppose we all have different standards we aim for.

[Daryl]

I suppose, but thought success was the key phrase.

[PEARL DRUMS]

I should rephrase. It didn’t take 30-40 to make a shooter. It took that many to start producing bows people want.

[Spalding]

Although it’s probably too late to do anything about it now, but how thick is the web between barrel and ramrod channel?

Bob

[PEARL DRUMS]

Definitely too late, Bob. It’s about .195 at the muzzle and breech.Tonight I’m going to work the top rails down some and round off towards the RR channel a bit more. I should be able to get it looking a bit more respectable. I’ll put up more pics when I finish adjusting.

[whetrock]

I think most of the weight you are seeing is probably because you haven't yet trimmed down the "rails" to either side of the rod groove. How much of the ramrod should show? The number 50% gets thrown out there, but it actually varies. Having more than 50% of the rod showing is common. On the half stock Daryl just showed, you can see that only about 25% of the ramrod is covered.

I'm assuming you saw this Jaeger on Clay's website intro? 

https://www.youtube.com/@grumpygunsmithofwilliamsburg/videos





Notice how much of the ramrod is showing. It is very common for people to cut the ramrod groove deeper than it needs to be, and that may be the case with your stock as well.

If you do need to cut down the rails on the ramrod channel, then do it very slowly and carefully. It's very easy to go too fast here with a rasp and accidentally remove more than you meant to. And if just using a rasp, it's also hard to be consistent. So if you have to take off a lot, you can use a rasp to start with, but stop well before you get near your final surface and switch to a sandpaper jig, something like this image below, that will help you get to final depth consistently. This is with a piece of 220 sandpaper held to a 4"x8" wood block using glue or double sided tape, and then a split piece of ramrod screwed or tacked down over the sandpaper, with countersunk holes. Don't use coarse heavy sandpaper on this, as you need to be able to control this well and you don't want it to leave deep scratches in the wood. If the sides of the forearm have already been shaped a bit (as yours have), then the rails on the rod groove aren't very thick and you have to cut them very carefully.

If you make the split piece of ramrod just a tiny bit thicker/deeper than you need your final groove, then when this jig stops cutting, you will have just enough wood left for final sanding or scraping.

[PEARL DRUMS]

I used that pic often when I was drawing this one up. I’m going to build a sanding jig just like you drew. I love it. Thanks for advice. I’m excited to get out of work and get back in the shop. With all of this good advice I’m confident I can get this fat girl thinned down.

[whetrock]

I hope it helps.

Let me also mention that I like the 8" width on this as it helps me keep it level, and gives me a convenient way to grip it. I had a narrow one that I used for a while, but found that sometimes I had it leaning a bit and cut one side deeper than the other. So, assuming the rifle is upside down in the vise and is level there, then holding the jig level will give you an even cut on both sides of the rod groove.

[whetrock]

Definitely too late, Bob. It’s about .195 at the muzzle and breech.Tonight I’m going to work the top rails down some and round off towards the RR channel a bit more. I should be able to get it looking a bit more respectable. I’ll put up more pics when I finish adjusting.

By the way, it may not be too late to thin the web if you want to. I'd lower the edges/rails on the rod groove first though and evaluate. Jaegers are a little thicker/stockier (no pun intended) in the forearms than are some long thin longrifles, so the web as you have it may be perfectly fine.

A lot of guys assume that once the rod hole is drilled that you can't change the web, but it's not hard to make a scraper that allows you to change the inside of the rod hole so as to thin the web on the barrel side of the rod hole. That allows it to be aligned with a deepened rod groove (that is, a thinner web outside the rod hole).

What you cannot easily do is change the lower side of the rod hole. You can glue a dowel in the rod hole and re-drill if you need to, but then you will still have a patch in there, and you still have to be careful not to cut into it as you work on the forearm (grip area). So the thickness between the original rod hole (patch or no patch, either way) and the outside of the forearm (grip area) must be carefully managed. You don't want to cut into the hole, and you don't want to cut into a patch, either.

If you want to know more about scraping the inside of a rod hole, just holler.
 

[54Ball]

 Chris,

 OK, I know a Jaeger is not a 1810 NC mountain rifle but hopefully this will help.
 My finger is touching the widest part of the forestocks. About 1/3 down should be the widest portion.
 Notice of course that 1/3 down will be lower on the lower forestock. Notice the transition by the glare.
 This NC rifle has a v-shaped forestock. The same is true for rounded forestocks.
 1/8 widest point lower forestock
 1/16 widest point upper forestock
 On a Jaeger you may want to go wider but not by much.

 Concerning the web…195, I don’t think that too bad, it’s just a hair more than 3/16.

 You’ll be able to tell a bunch by losing some of that wood.

[PEARL DRUMS]

Thanks for those pics and explanation. I ended up using an Eric Krewson bow tool. He makes a tool called the Gizmo to help beginners find areas of bow limbs needing work. The pencil is threaded through a nut. I adjusted it to my lowest part of the RR channel. Ran it to the end and worked the areas it didn’t mark. Soon enough I had a line end to end. I’d say I took a good 1/16” off most of it. I probably got another .030-.040 off the top of the barrel channel. I drilled a hole in the barrel channel and checked that depth. Glad I didn’t touch the belly it’s where it needs to be. This fatty has lost all of the bulk I can give up. I surely appreciate all the advice given.

[Jim Kibler]

It’s hard to tell from the photos, but it seems the cross-sectional shape is as much the problem as the web thickness.  I would focus on understanding the proper shape of the forestock as well.  It takes time to understand all of this.  Years ago, I learned from Recreating the American Longrifle.  You might find it a good resource as well.