Shooting round balls in Muzzleloader shotguns

[OlSmokePole]

Hi folks! I bought myself something I've wanted for a looooong time, a double barrel shotgun. Of course, it's a muzzleloader, because I personally like them more than cartridge guns. Anyway, it's a bit of a project, I'm going to make a new stock for it because I'm not happy with the cracks/mold/powdery wood on the one it came with, and I need to either buy or make locks for it. I've made a rifle stock and a back action lock previously but I have a mainspring I bought intending to make another rifle lock, seems like it might get used for this. Of course, I'm going to have a gunsmith inspect the barrels because this is a Belgium made gun with Damascus barrels, and the proof marks are telling me it's from 1852 at the very oldest. It's a 16 gauge by the way.

Now! Back to the question that inspired this post, can I shoot round balls in this thing? I know people shoot round balls in shotguns like the fowler, but the fowler has thick barrels, these SxS barrels I have are quite thin and I don't want to risk damaging my new favorite gun. Someone told me they used to have 2 Damascus side by side Muzzleloaders and the barrels were stamped "not for ball". Mine do not say anything about the type of projectiles to use in them. The reason I want to shoot round balls in it is, well, I guess its just for fun. Sure, shot is fun, but I want to shoot 2 round balls in rapid succession, even if I only do it a few times.

What kind of load would I be using for the round ball? My current thought is 50-60 grains of powder, nitro card, fiber wad, and then an overshot card. In The limited information I found on the internet I saw some people saying they shoot without patches and others saying they get patches for them. I'm making this post though because I couldn't find much about the safety of doing this with an original.

[Daryl]

Quite possibly it could/would be unsafe to fire round balls. On the other hand, the normal shot charge is 1 ounce, or 437gr. That is the weight of a 16 bore ball. To shoot a ball in this new 16 bore, it would have to be smaller, thus lighter than a normal shot charge for the gun. Non-patched but with wads would likely produce less pressure than a cloth patched ball.
A bare ball on top of the powder, with a single wad of some sort to hold the ball inside the barrel would produce even less pressure.
Oft times, poorly looked after damascus barrels will be rotted out in spots. If one of those "spots" is between the barrels under a rib, it will not be visible. The bore should be examined, all of it, with a bore scope to look for rotted and/or rust holes inside.
Why does it need new locks?

Trackofthewolf has locks for sale.

[whetrock]

Do you know if it does or doesn't have choke, and if so, how much?
I have no knowledge or experience with this topic, so my question is just what it is. It's not an informed opinion.

[OlSmokePole]

Daryl- it needs new locks because, well, it doesn't have any right now. Track of the wolf does sell some that would fit the current stock by l&r, but that would set me back $340 for the two of them. Oh yeah and I need to get the nipples out of the barrels because one of them is broken.

I used my own borescope to check the bores, I couldn't see anything I thought was questionable but the gunsmith I found will make the decision on that.

[OlSmokePole]

Whetrock- I have confirmed/determined that there are no chokes, just open cylinder bores.

[rich pierce]

Daryl- it needs new locks because, well, it doesn't have any right now. Track of the wolf does sell some that would fit the current stock by l&r, but that would set me back $340 for the two of them. Oh yeah and I need to get the nipples out of the barrels because one of them is broken.

I used my own borescope to check the bores, I couldn't see anything I thought was questionable but the gunsmith I found will make the decision on that.

I've got locks for sale

[Birddog6]

I have always bent told that a Patch round ball has less chamber pressure than Shot. Shot
has a card, wad, & the shot bunches upon ignition as it is propelled forward & wad compressed
& all of it = more resistance. At least that was what I understood from discussions I had with
Bill Knight about it one time when we were testing some stuff yrs ago. 

[RVAH-7]

A few years ago I acquired a percussion 16 ga. double and I DO shoot it. The late Tim Mitchell of Marion, Mt. replaced the nipples for me and the bore is admittedly a little rough but he said use it.
I did the "proof" stunt with a tire and 100 gr. of Goex and she's still together and me, too. I shoot 70 gr. of 3f and a cushion wad, some lead shot and an overshot card for blue grouse and turkeys. Same powder for a hemp or linen patched .635 hand cast soft lead round ball. Surprisingly accurate 60 to 100 yards.
BBs in the right barrel for birds and a patched round ball in the left for grizzlies. So far no left barrel needed.
Check out V.M Starr on ML Shotguns and Belgian proof marks at damascus-barrels.com/Belgian_All_Proofmarks.html
Good luck with your new smokepole.

[Hawg]

I have used patched .690 balls in my Pedersoli 12 gauge with 100 grains of Swiss 2F. It's one of the older guns without chokes and has thin barrels. I would not do it with my original Belgium made Ancion.

[Daryl]

I have always bent told that a Patch round ball has less chamber pressure than Shot. Shot
has a card, wad, & the shot bunches upon ignition as it is propelled forward & wad compressed
& all of it = more resistance. At least that was what I understood from discussions I had with
Bill Knight about it one time when we were testing some stuff yrs ago.

A also have been under that "impression" that round ball creates less pressure than a shot charge due to exactly as you described, Birddog6.
Why some guns were marked "Not For Ball" is beyond me, but perhaps it is due to the barrels not regulating (shooting together or parallel) at all with ball
and it is a situation of not being able to "hit" with balls. Barrels "set up" for shot will be pointing more together (convergence of bore axis) than a set of barrels "regulated" purposely for ball.

[5judge]

In some book I have, perhaps on of Carl Russell's, is a discourse on double barrel shotguns on the frontier. It asserts double guns were a favorite arm of pilgrims crossing the plains and mountains because of their versatility, providing two discharges of either shot or ball.

[Daryl]

There is a photograph in Firearms of the American West of some hunters at a cabin in the mountains. I don't know if it's Idaho or Montana - could have been Washington or some other States as well, but one of the fellows in the picture had a SxS "shotgun" I believe, with a mounted bayonet. Quite interesting for sure. That all the "guns" were muzzleloaders, was obvious.

[Kurt]

If the shotgun has a choke, i.e., full, modified, improved cylinder, etc., a solid ball larger than the choke diameter should not be shot through. Rifled slugs have ribs so as to allow them to be shot through various chokes, including full, without causing pressure issues because the gases escape between the ribs. A cylinder bore gun would be safe for a patched ball as long as the barrel metal has the integrity required.

[OlSmokePole]

If the shotgun has a choke, i.e., full, modified, improved cylinder, etc., a solid ball larger than the choke diameter should not be shot through. Rifled slugs have ribs so as to allow them to be shot through various chokes, including full, without causing pressure issues because the gases escape between the ribs. A cylinder bore gun would be safe for a patched ball as long as the barrel metal has the integrity required.

I determined today that neither barrel is choked. I still need to go see my gunsmith and have him confirm the barrels are safe but I used my borescope last night and can't see anything but surface rust on the bores. I think they'll clean up quite nicely.

[Daryl]

I'd guess it would be next to impossible to load a ball larger than the choke(if choked) in a smoothbore. I use round balls in my choked 20 bore
as that is the only muzzleloading smoothbore I own.
I would not even attempt to shoot a ball larger than the choke in a britch stuffer.
Maroon Scotch-brite and WD40 for the bores, run on a jag with an electric drill works well.
Longitudinal grooves (length wise) on the jag helps the material to hold onto the jag and be spun.
A undersize bronze brush, like a 12 or 16 bore brush will also hold the Scotchbrite.

[jamie5070]

I have a couple sets of modern damascus double barrels, that I have thought about making into a muzzle loading shotgun. Only draw back is the barrels are only about 30"

[Daryl]

This shotgun was built by my bro. Taylor, with an 1880's or 1890's set of damascus (twist-steel) barrels.

[Kurt]

Daryl is correct. The obvious conclusion would be that you wouldn't be able to muzzle-load a ball larger than the gun was choked. Speaking exclusively about muzzle loaders. To avoid any confusion.

[Daryl]

That is why I use a .595" ball in my IMP Cyl. choked 20- bore with a .021" patch.
I may, or may not experiment with thinner patches. Thinner patches carry less lube - THAT could be a problem.

[OlSmokePole]

Daryl, absolutely beautiful shotgun. I don't see many double flints when I'm looking around here or the Facebook groups, or even the blackpowder subreddit for that matter.

I got my barrels cleaned up, I ended up using my .45 bore brush wrapped in steel wool, then I just put hot water and dawn dish soap in the bores and got to scrubbing. I need to do a little more cleaning tomorrow with cpl and patches, but I think these are going to be good barrels. Checked with my borescope, there's no pitting in the right barrel and I could only spot 3 pits in the left, the furthest down of which is about 8 inches from the breech.

Now I need to figure out what to do about the nipples. One of them is broken and the other has a rusted out flash hole, so they've both got to come out. Problem is, they're so stuck in there I'm worried my only option is to drill them out

Jamie5070- these barrels I have are 30 inches. It seems that's standard for most double barrels, although I could be wrong since all the others I've seen are just pictures on the Internet. Just seems like most of the ones I see have barrels right around 30 inches long. Or maybe that's just these Belgian guns?

[Bill in Md]

Damascus barreled SxS shotguns can shoot patched balls and shoot them well....As Daryl stated, if a patched ball can be loaded with ease at the muzzle, there will be no issue when fired, regardless of choke. Also as Keith stated, shot loads create more pressure than a well lubed patched ball

[Daryl]

Singles normally have longer tubes. Doubles have shorter ones, however in "FIREARMS, of the American West,  there is mention of a market hunter (Old Tom)in the St. Louis area with a 12 bore having 48" barrels.
He had a "contest" with a visiting Englishman "sportsman" who had in Tom's eyes a little pistol as it was a 14 bore SxS with 26 or 28"tubes.  Neither of these guns had chokes.
The contest was shot at 75 yards at a card of paper. The gun that put the most pellets on that card won the "loser's" gun.
Tom fired first and was rewarded with 4 pellets on the 4"x 7" piece of paper.
The Englishman fired second, after loading an "ELY" ctg that had shot (in an iron cage) & with the wad encased in paper. The "ctg" was the green paper ctg for long range shooting s I remember the colour patterns used. Upon firing, the English gun put 28 holes in the card. These "ctgs" have been covered here in the past, along with a description from W.W.Greener's 9th edition of "THE GUN".
Of course, this is about shooting shot, not single ball projectiles.

[Hungry Horse]

 I will give you a friendly warning or two. I bought a second hand modern muzzleloading shotgun that had been shortened to a coach gun length. After shooting it a while I noticed the point of impact of the charges seemed to wander. I stripped  the gun completely down and found the stock was cracked in a particularly hard spot to get to between the locks. I eventually got it fixed but it took a lot of time, patients, and head scratching. You also have to understand how much more exposure to the business end of a loaded gun you are going to experience with a double barrel muzzleloading rile, shotgun, or pistol. I never got shot by my own gun, but my dog knocked my loaded and capped gun over and nearly got me.

Hungry Horse