Original Fowler details

[Dave B]

I was lucky enough to spend a portion of my Saturday yeasterday at the Washington Historical Arms makers Guild program. I was also lucky enough to see an orignial English fowler one of the main members has been kind enough to bring for us to see. The obvious details right off were present. It is light weight a pleasure to shoulder and great achitecture.  The thing that amaised me was the way they maker off set the barrel flats by making the lock side closer in  so that when you view the breach from the top you see alonger bevel on the oblique flat oposite the lock oblique flat.  The effect is to reduce the locks tail out possition reducing the width of the wrist lock panle transition. The other thing was the out flair of the muzzle. it swells to the end from about a 1 1/2 back. I have some photos I will post. So this top view is dead center over the wrist/tang area. See the width difference of the oblique flats you can see the standing breach is symetrical and shows an amount of discrepency of about 3/32"
I like how the tail of the lock panel  tapers into the rest of the wrist from a swell at the centre of the lock panel back  through the tear drop finials. There is no drop off to the back of the lock panels.

[Mike Brooks]

Nice gun!, More Pictures! Does it have an upper fore stock molding?

[eastwind]

What are the proof marks--any pictures of them? and the trigger guard?

[LynnC]

Yes!  More pics please.

Question for those who have seen a few - Is muzzle flair on a flint fowler common, rare, average or      Thanks..............................Lynn

[James Rogers]

Great gun! looking forward to more pictures! Would love to see the trigger guard, butt plate and entry thimble up close.

[James Rogers]

Yes!  More pics please.

Question for those who have seen a few - Is muzzle flair on a flint fowler common, rare, average or      Thanks..............................Lynn

I have only been fortunate enough to handle only a handful of English fowling guns and all were flared to varying degrees. Some of the other guys who have more experience with them may be able to give a more accurate response.

I found this by J N George who wrote "English Guns and Rifles"

" The fowling-piece  proper was, moreover, distinguished from the "fusil" by the form of it's barrel, which was not only considerably lighter than that of the ball gun but was "flared" or enlarged at it's muzzle instead of being bored in true cylinder. "

[J.D.]

Great gun! looking forward to more pictures! Would love to see the trigger guard, butt plate and entry thimble up close.

And side profile, lock and lock panel, and how about the sideplate?

I do love seeing these types of photos, and since I live in a longrifle black hole, I do appreciate every posting of photos.

Thanks,
J.D.

[Dave B]

Mike, There is no upper fore stock molding on this piece. The butt plate is of the early style with a long return, very wide (2") and stepping down in sections, six I believe.Track has a similar butt plate BP-Fowl-20-I. The entry pipe is the clasic english style with a very pointed finial.I regret that I was not able to take full size shots. My volunteer was getting tired and I needed to get other things together and knowing that next gunmakers fair it would be available no more were taken except for these last few.  I didnt get the proof marks either. I know I know smackings and wackings. I will do better next go round.
The piece is unsigned and the barrel to my knowledge has never been out of the  stock. The proofs if memeory serves are English. You can see them sort of in the side plate photo.

[Mike Brooks]

There was a shadow on in one of the forestock pictures that made me think it may have a upper molding, which would have been highly unusual. Very nice gun, wish I had a 1/2 dozen of those side plates laying around. The lock is a replacement by the way.
 The proof marks are typical London proofs. The stamp between the two oval proofs will be the makes stamp. Can you recall what the initials are? Can anyone make them out.......I see RW, which would be one of the Wilsons.  Very nice gun.

[James Rogers]

My guess was RW as well. It looks like RE but it does not center under the mark with those letters. R Wilson was in production until 1780. N

What would you experts date this gun? What factors are you using for the date?

Looking thru my British gun books I am making a wild guess of 1760-1770?

[Mike Brooks]

My guess was RW as well. It looks like RE but it does not center under the mark with those letters. R Wilson was in production until 1780. N

What would you experts date this gun? What factors are you using for the date?

Looking thru my British gun books I am making a wild guess of 1760-1770?

I'd agree with that date. The RW stamp was used by the Wilson family for 60 to 80 years IIRC,

[Roger Fisher]

Some words on the shootability of that beautiful piece.  I notice that the frt sight is ground down to nothing to get her to shoot high enough and I do like that grooved sectioned tang.  It appears as though the breech section of the barrel is a frog hair higher than the groove bottom of the tang, so the shooter must have shown all or most of the barrel top while shooting her!!  I'm planning on using a grooved tang top with some minor grooving at the rear barrel end on one I'm scratching at now!  Any good tips on this plan out there??

It appears as though someone drove a pin or nail in to the extreme rear of the lock panel to force the lock forward to get benefit of having the sear nearer the trigger axle is this the case?  I admit to doing exactly that with my present shooter.
This was an attempt to get a better trigger pull.

That crack in the upper area of the lower forearm just ahead looks much like the one in my shooter

That dropping of the stock line at the muzzle is appealing, should I or shouldn't I?
Maybe a schnaubel with leaving the stock line at the barrel side straight may be more PC?

Lots of questions - any help out there?

She is in fact a very appealing old gal!  Thanks much for posting

[LynnC]

Capt. Jas - Thanks - So muzzle flair is common on English fowlers.

Next Question - What about on our American flint fowlers or did we use whatever we could get?

Mike - Why do you say the lock is a replacement?  I agree it is a tad late in style but could it be early enough to be original to this fowler??

BTW - Really enjoyed the photos Dave B - Glad you posted them!

[Feltwad]

Can you be more exact on the proof marks etc on the barrel .
You are dating it about 1750 if so lets not forget that most but not all barrels at that time used by the London gun makers were Spanish barrels most carried the barrel makers name..The muzzle of the barrel we class as fluted the forsight is true long fowler for the period which was carried through to the early 1800,s.The lock I would say is  later 1780-90 standard pan but roller frizzen this was prior to Mantons rain proof pan.
Feltwad
A Spanish type of barrel used by English gun makers

[Robin Hewitt]

Mike - Why do you say the lock is a replacement? 

I can answer that, it's too plain, doesn't go with the fancy furniture. I wouldn't say no if it was offerrd to me though 

Pre-pineapple if it's English so would have to pre-date Cap't Cook's arrival at Hawaii.

OTOH not an acorn finial, that flame and the shield on the side plate look a tadge French perhaps. Not a problem for London, Egg brought a lot of French style with him, people thought it was posh until the French revolted and became scary.

The proofs would have to be raised at the bottom of oval dents for 1750 London.

[James Rogers]

You are dating it about 1750 if so lets not forget that most but not all barrels at that time used by the London gun makers were Spanish barrels most carried the barrel makers name..

I know documentation shows that Spanish barrels were preferred but do the numbers of existing English stocked guns of the 1740-1760 period show that as well? While the limited number of source materials I have dont seem to show the Spanish barrels as outnumbering non-Spanish barreled surviving guns, they surely imply their preferred status.

[Mike Brooks]

You are dating it about 1750 if so lets not forget that most but not all barrels at that time used by the London gun makers were Spanish barrels most carried the barrel makers name..

I know documentation shows that Spanish barrels were preferred but do the numbers of existing English stocked guns of the 1740-1760 period show that as well? While the limited number of source materials I have dont seem to show the Spanish barrels as outnumbering non-Spanish barreled surviving guns, they surely imply their preferred status.

Spanish and Italian barrels were highly sought after in that period, they supposedly made the best barrels available at that time. I don't think they were very  numerous as they seem to have been used on only higher end guns.  From my resources I can't see them being more than 20% tops on high end guns.  Feltwad may have a different view being  across the pond?

[LynnC]

OK Robin, I can accept that about a late model lock.  Just an uneducated thougt - Whose to say it wasn't stocked with parts on hand.  After all, it isn't signed. 

BTW - Learning quite a bit here and appreciate it.........................Lynn

[James Rogers]

Just an uneducated thougt - Whose to say it wasn't stocked with parts on hand.  After all, it isn't signed.

The barrel does have the maker's mark.

[LynnC]

Yes - The barrel makers mark - the rest of the gun?.......................Lynn

[James Rogers]

Yes - The barrel makers mark - the rest of the gun?.......................Lynn

The maker's mark on the barrel can be the gunmaker's mark and I believe it is in this case. I am looking at a picture of a James Barber fowling gun with a Spanish barrel made by Esquibel and James Barber's maker's mark "IB" is on the barrel along with all the other Spanish marks and proof and view marks.  The gun was made about 1740.
 

[Robin Hewitt]

The barrel does have the maker's mark.

Ivan someone, but I cant make out the first letter of his name. Tried looking up a few guesses but didn't find him IVAN ?THAR(B?)A

[James Rogers]

I think the gun pictured in this thread has a maker's mark of an "R" with possibly a "W" on the barrel. Most likely Wilson.

The "IB" I referred to in my last post (on another gun) is James Barber's mark.

[northmn]

Dumb question, but wouldn't a better Spanish barrel be Damascus?

DP

[Mike Brooks]

Dumb question, but wouldn't a better Spanish barrel be Damascus?

DP

Too early for that. These were made (according to legend) with old horse shoe nails and steel. They weren't made to show pattern like the later barrels were.